Old Judge(N172) or T206 Set (Which is harder to complete?

[insidethewrapper]

2 Questions:
First, if someone was starting at zero on both the Old Judge N172 ( 521 cards with 29 HOF cards ) and T206 ( 524 with 76 HOF cards with 38 different players ) complete "basic " sets.
Which one would be " easier " to completely assemble ?

Second: Which would take more money to assemble ? Any estimates on both , without regarding grading factors , average set ?


I would think the Old Judge N172 would be harder to complete but the T206 more expensive , any other thoughts.

[prewarsports]

Elon buying Twitter is an easier transaction than completing an Old Judge set would be.

Money is not the issue, but if it was, it would be many many millions. Even with a mid-level T206 Wager, the Old Judge set would be more expensive in a hypothetical world were every Old Judge card known suddenly became available.

[G1911]

N172 and it is not even close.

T206 is not very hard to complete. Every card in the set is easy to find (even Wagner, there are several available every year) except for the Doyle variation. There is 1 difficult card, the rest of the set is pretty much available to purchase at any time. One only needs to be rich to have a T206 set -Doyle if they really want one. Doyle has several copies out there, but is the clear limiting card.

N172 is truly difficult, even if someone as rich as Elon decided to go for it he'd have a hard time; there are so many extremely rare poses that acquiring them all would be exceptionally difficult and impressive regardless of how much cash one threw at it.

[oldjudge]

Clearly Old Judge. Even if a set was defined as one card of each player it would be virtually impossible since many are unique or unique in private hands. T206 is a great set, but with the exception of Doyle NY it is just not that rare.

[Fred]

The T206 set can be completed if you have the resources ($$$). You can probably find at least 70% of the cards on ebay at any given point in time.

Even if you have all the $$$ available, you're just not going to find all the differnt cards/poses for N172.

Does anybody have the latest count on the number of unique poses for N172?

[insidethewrapper]

Not counting all the poses of the N172 Old Judge Set, just 1 of each player (521) is what I was asking for estimates.

Any cost estimates to put together these 2 sets . I was thinking about 2-3 million + for T206 ( 524 set), the N172 Old Judge appears to be impossible. What is the the closest collection to completion of the 521 subjects ? 450 ? 500 ? How much ($$$) to get close to completion ???

[G1911]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Any cost estimates to put together these 2 sets . I was thinking about 2-3 million + for T206 ( 524 set), the N172 Old Judge appears to be impossible. What is the the closest collection to completion of the 521 subjects ? 450 ? 500 ? How much to get close to completion ???

I think a beat to hell Wagner is worth $2-$3 million at this point.

[insidethewrapper]

Probably $4-5 Million is a better estimate for the T206.

How many T206 complete 524 sets are out there ? What is the closest to a 521 set of N172 's ?

[felada]

Reminds me of this thread

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...t=81872&page=2

[oldjudge]

Since the Old Judge book was published in 2008 two new players have been added to the set making the total 523. The players are Tug Wilson and Roscoe Coughlin. Joe and I wrote an article for OC about the Wilson; here is an image of the Coughlin

[oldjudge]

Sorry for the shitty picture. The image on the card is actually pretty good.

[oldjudge]

BTW, for what it’s worth (probably not much) I view the complete set as one card from every player from every team they are listed with. To be clear, I mean if John Smith has a card that lists him with New York and one that lists him with Pittsburgh then you need two cards to “complete” John Smith. That would make the set closer to 800 cards, although, truth be told, I have never figured out the exact number.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Not counting all the poses of the N172 Old Judge Set, just 1 of each player (521) is what I was asking for estimates.

Any cost estimates to put together these 2 sets . I was thinking about 2-3 million + for T206 ( 524 set), the N172 Old Judge appears to be impossible. What is the the closest collection to completion of the 521 subjects ? 450 ? 500 ? How much ($$$) to get close to completion ???

The Old Judge N172 set, even at just 1 card per player, is a virtually impossible set to complete. Jay, Joe, and Richard's book even lists out the 100 toughest players to find cards of as of the time of its publication. That list is topped by California league players of which there may only be a card or two of many of the 18 different players in that subgroup. In all my years I have yet to even see a California league player card available for sale.

Plus, when that Goodwin/Old Judge book was originally published in 2008, it only listed 512 different players in the set. Yet if memory serves, by the time the last Krause/SCD vintage catalog came out around 2017, it was showing there were now 525 different players in the Old Judge set. And I would have to think that for any of the new players who were found since 2008, there's likely only going to be a card or two existing for any of them, making them uber-rare as well, on a par with many of the California League player cards.

And with virtually no real current (or recent past) sales history to look at for any of these uber-rare OJ cards, who knows what they could end up going for if they came up for sale in today's market. I would expect most of them individually to easily go for six-figure amounts though. The problem is ever finding all the N172 Old Judge player cards for sale to actually complete a full player set. Because of so many rare cards in the set, it is virtually impossible to make a well educated guess as to what a complete OJ player set would cost in today's market. I could easily see it topping $5M, but where it could end up, who knows? It would be a unique set due to the various 1-of-1 player cards in it.

Meanwhile, there are/have been several documented complete 524 card T206 sets put together, with each set's overall value probably most dependent on condition. Especially the condition of the big four" cards, and with emphasis on the Wagner most of all.

[oldjudge]

First, the Krause list is incorrect so you can ignore that. Second, I believe the book listed 521 players not 512. The correct number as of today is 523. Bob, I think the issue you are having is that the numbers only go to 512. That is because newly found cards have been given half numbers. Take a look at Davin for example and you will see what I am saying.

[G1911]

Stupid question maybe, but the gentlemen on the non-sports side have done a wonderful job compiling images of every card in some of the huge vintage sets into a gallery. Is there any similar online gallery of the Old Judge's? I'm a set collector and so don't collect the Old Judge's but they are a wonderful slice of baseball history and it would be an interesting thing to peruse.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

BTW, for what it’s worth (probably not much) I view the complete set as one card from every player from every team they are listed with. To be clear, I mean if John Smith has a card that lists him with New York and one that lists him with Pittsburgh then you need two cards to “complete” John Smith. That would make the set closer to 800 cards, although, truth be told, I have never figured out the exact number.

Jay, I'm curious as to why each different pose would not be needed for a "complete set"–is it simply the rarity of some?

Thanks, Matthew

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Jay, I'm curious as to why each different pose would not be needed for a "complete set"–is it simply the rarity of some?

Thanks, Matthew

Why stop at each pose? For most poses there are multiple variations. For example, here are 3 different variations of this single Hank O'Day pose:

[oldjudge]

Bobby, you could certainly define it that way or define it with each variation. You are just talking about different levels of impossible. There are over 3500 different poses and if you count nameplate variations you are in the 10,000 ballpark.

[Webster]

To infinity….and beyond!!

[BobbyStrawberry]

All responses appreciated, thank you

The infinite / un-completable aspect is definitely part of the set's appeal for me. (I realize that may sound weird to some!)

[oldjudge]

I’m with you on that. If I finish a set I get bored with it. Old Judges are a never ending quest.

[insidethewrapper]

I wanted to keep it as "simple" as possible. Now 523 OJ and 524 T206. Many ways to make a "fantasy set " . One of each, all poses, team sets are hard enough, "0" Number Series ", etc. Or T206 , sets by backs, all backs would be in several thousands, omit variations (Magie, Doyle etc ). Collecting is fun.


Thanks Jay, I missed the 2 additional card update. thanks for posting.

[Misunderestimated]

The Old Judge "set" is next to impossible to define let alone complete.

I guess one could create some narrow definition and go from there -- maybe exclude the Cal Leaguers and the Players League only subjects.... and have it be one card per player. It would still be impossible I guess -- some new card that met the definition could conceivably still come to light

On the other hand, T206 can be had if you threw enough money at it. Probably wouldn't even take that long with the right contacts helping out (i.e. people on commission). Also, I don't think any new T206s are going to be discovered.

[insidethewrapper]

Ref : Old Judge . Does anyone even have a complete team set, let alone, a large portion of the set ? I know the Detroit Team set is very difficult.

[G1911]

I would think we have to use the same definitions for both sets.

If Cobb requires 4 cards in T206, all his poses, then you need every pose in Old Judge as well.

[oldjudge]

Brian—Just to clarify there are no solely Player’s League cards. All used existing (pre-1890) poses.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

First, the Krause list is incorrect so you can ignore that. Second, I believe the book listed 521 players not 512. The correct number as of today is 523. Bob, I think the issue you are having is that the numbers only go to 512. That is because newly found cards have been given half numbers. Take a look at Davin for example and you will see what I am saying.

Thanks Jay, didn't have the books in front of me. So the correct number of different players is just 523. Cool, thanks.

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Ref : Old Judge . Does anyone even have a complete team set, let alone, a large portion of the set ? I know the Detroit Team set is very difficult.

I had the 1887 old judge Detroit teams set, all poses 26 plus poses. Sold with REA this spring. Stuck finding the other tough Detroit players. Took over 30 years to complete. Joe

[jcmtiger]

Never will see a complete Old Judge N172 set of all poses. Never.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Never will see a complete Old Judge N172 set of all poses. Never.

Agreed, it would be unquestionably impossible and likely cost an infinite amount of money as just the effort would be well known and as you gathered then the prices would multiply exponentially on each one of one. People would be asking millions for unknown players as you would be essentially blackmailed into paying any amount. It would make the cost of a complete T206 as paltry in comparison, as you would be in Elon money within only a couple years.