Hey, pennant guys

[bocca001]

National League set of mini pennants from the early 1960s (HANCO). Giants on top (Dodgers on the bottom). I'm probably going to leave it intact.... maybe.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

National League set of mini pennants from the early 1960s (HANCO). Giants on top (Dodgers on the bottom). I'm probably going to leave it intact.... maybe.

I definitely would!

[MK]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I definitely would!

I’ll bet you wouldn’t if the Dodgers were on top. 😂

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

National League set of mini pennants from the early 1960s (HANCO). Giants on top (Dodgers on the bottom). I'm probably going to leave it intact.... maybe.

Interesting! Seems like we can credit the mysterious HANCO with these two pennants that share same design:

[thetahat]

The world’s only 8” by 36” pennant holder?

[bocca001]

Here are the Phillies and Pirates minis. Does this Phillies pennant suggest that HANCO maybe made the pennants with stars orbiting hats? I know that design is common for the Phillies, but it is very rare for some other teams (e.g., the Giants pennant from a week or so ago).

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Here are the Phillies and Pirates minis. Does this Phillies pennant suggest that HANCO maybe made the pennants with stars orbiting hats? I know that design is common for the Phillies, but it is very rare for some other teams (e.g., the Giants pennant from a week or so ago).

Correct, the Phillies always had this logo, Trench used it for years. As for the early 70s series with all teams ... perhaps. There seem to be lots of Yankees/Mets pennants that have some similarities and that would suggest Hanco, I believe Domer located them in NY.

[Fballguy]

For those intrigued by the late 60, early 70s, oddball and bootleg pennants...I found this picture pretty interesting.

1) I love finding lots of pennants from the same series/maker and it appears that is the case here. I recognize many Adflag designs. Are they all Adflag? The Astros, Expos, Royals, Padres appear to be similar to each other but not the others.

2) Many depict styles that are often attributed to earlier decades. This lot is clearly from the very late 60s or more likely early 70s. I know at least a few of these have felt counterparts and designs were often used over years so not really surprising. But is that the case here or are these copies/bootlegs? Hard to see for sure, but I don't see makers marks on any of them. The Mets for sure screams bootleg to me.

3) None have a MLB trademark. By the early 70s, were they mandatory? Was Adflag exempt from using one?

4) They are all monochrome which is a hint to Ad Flag, but Ad Flag started to produce multi colored pennants in the 1960s. Did they go back to monochrome or always continue to produce them?

5) If you're as interested in this as I am, raise your hand.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

For those intrigued by the late 60, early 70s, oddball and bootleg pennants...I found this picture pretty interesting.

1) I love finding lots of pennants from the same series/maker and it appears that is the case here. I recognize many Adflag designs. Are they all Adflag? The Astros, Expos, Royals, Padres appear to be similar to each other but not the others.

2) Many depict styles that are often attributed to earlier decades. This lot is clearly from the very late 60s or more likely early 70s. I know at least a few of these have felt counterparts and designs were often used over years so not really surprising. But is that the case here or are these copies/bootlegs? Hard to see for sure, but I don't see makers marks on any of them. The Mets for sure screams bootleg to me.

3) None have a MLB trademark. By the early 70s, were they mandatory? Was Adflag exempt from using one?

4) They are all monochrome which is a hint to Ad Flag, but Ad Flag started to produce multi colored pennants in the 1960s. Did they go back to monochrome or always continue to produce them?

5) If you're as interested in this as I am, raise your hand.

Boy is that one brutally unattractive collection of pennants ... I swear I think the Ad Flag artist intended to scare little children with his sketches. Not only that, but these pennants were seemingly cut by a child with scissors and often the spine is like a full inch away from the border. It is interesting to see all of them together, however… I know the Padres has been auctioned before as a PCL pennant and I think the Milwaukee Brewers as one from the turn of the century!

[bocca001]

I have a two different versions of the Astros (all orange, multicolor). They are both softer felt and decent quality. I also have two different versions of the Giants. They both look and feel like what I know to be football bootlegs (very stiff material, strange cuts, weird spines). Maybe the Astros were just early and there are lower quality versions produced at a later date.

Not sure if these are related, but I keep seeing versions of this Houston Colts pennant (blue on orange). I bought one of these for $6 a few years ago, believing it to be some kind of more recent copy. They keep selling on ebay for $50-$100.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Correct, the Phillies always had this logo, Trench used it for years. As for the early 70s series with all teams ... perhaps. There seem to be lots of Yankees/Mets pennants that have some similarities and that would suggest Hanco, I believe Domer located them in NY.

Correct. HANCO was also known as the HANCO Art Novelty Co. Looks like they were in business as early as 1946 when they were located at 121 W. 27th St. in New York City. They existed through the 1980s; but were dissolved by the 1990s. Although they clearly made those early 1960s AL and NL mini pennants, we haven't found much more from them that ties them to professional sports pennants. They seem to have focused on travel/souvenir pennants.

Football Rob once found a NY Football Giants pennant by them; but, I think that's really it for them. I'm not aware of anything else. They may indeed have made some limited runs for New York teams....

I don't believe HANCO made that full size Houston pennant. I think they copied the artwork of others when they put that mini set together, as evidenced by that orbiting hat artwork they used--which seems to have been borrowed from Trench, as Greg points out.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

For those intrigued by the late 60, early 70s, oddball and bootleg pennants...I found this picture pretty interesting.

1) I love finding lots of pennants from the same series/maker and it appears that is the case here. I recognize many Adflag designs. Are they all Adflag? The Astros, Expos, Royals, Padres appear to be similar to each other but not the others.

2) Many depict styles that are often attributed to earlier decades. This lot is clearly from the very late 60s or more likely early 70s. I know at least a few of these have felt counterparts and designs were often used over years so not really surprising. But is that the case here or are these copies/bootlegs? Hard to see for sure, but I don't see makers marks on any of them. The Mets for sure screams bootleg to me.

3) None have a MLB trademark. By the early 70s, were they mandatory? Was Adflag exempt from using one?

4) They are all monochrome which is a hint to Ad Flag, but Ad Flag started to produce multi colored pennants in the 1960s. Did they go back to monochrome or always continue to produce them?

5) If you're as interested in this as I am, raise your hand.

I can think of no pennant by ADFLAG or WGN that ever bore an MLB logo. Like, not a single one. When MLB began licensing their marks in 1969, it appears they offered only Trench and ASCO this right. So, you won't find anything by other companies with the MLB logo because they would never have been officially licensed to make MLB pennants.

That doesn't mean they didn't make MLB pennants in 1969; it just means they weren't "officially licensed" merchandise.

I believe ADFLAG gave up on professional sports pennants by 1969, perhaps even a few years earlier. I could be wrong on this; but, after speaking with their owner, that's the impression I was left with. WGN, however, seems to have hung on through 1969, perhaps even a year or two later. They made a Reds pennant referencing them as "The Big Red Machine," which suggests it was made after 1969.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I can think of no pennant by ADFLAG or WGN that ever bore an MLB logo. Like, not a single one. When MLB began licensing their marks in 1969, it appears they offered only Trench and ASCO this right. So, you won't find anything by other companies with the MLB logo because they would never have been officially licensed to make MLB pennants.

That doesn't mean they didn't make MLB pennants in 1969; it just means they weren't "officially licensed" merchandise.

I believe ADFLAG gave up on professional sports pennants by 1969, perhaps even a few years earlier. I could be wrong on this; but, after speaking with their owner, that's the impression I was left with. WGN, however, seems to have hung on through 1969, perhaps even a year or two later. They made a Reds pennant referencing them as "The Big Red Machine," which suggests it was made after 1969.

So would you say these are Ad Flag and made prior to 1969? The Brewers and Rangers are definitely post-1969. The Expos, Padres, Astros, Royals may or may not be as well.

I've always attributed these two football pennants to Ad Flag but they are from 1972. They are very similar in style to the baseball pennants pictured.

[Domer05]

These two football pennants do indeed look like ADFLAG's work. They're monochrome, full body illustration, and tassel-less. Additionally, the steeler graphic was adapted from a larger rendition of the same player used for NFL and AFL pennants in the 1960s. And the matching texts confirms both were from the same maker.

When were these made do you suppose?

As to the baseball pennants ... I recognize most to be from ADFLAG. The Oakland A's one is by Trench. Not sure about the Padres one ... if made by Trench in 1969 or later I'd expect to see the MLB logo on it, which this lacks. Perhaps it was made in 1968, in anticipation of the team's creation? It's very similar to a white Padres pennant that Keezer made at the decade's end.

The Rangers, Royals, and Brewers one are a mystery to me....

The Astros one is an ADFLAG for sure.

[perezfan]

The Rangers, Brewers, Padres and probably Royals are not AdFlag Pennants. There is another elusive one from this same “mystery maker”. It’s the Mariners “Mermaid” pennant linked below....

https://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/lot-5092.aspx

These were made in the 1970s and were most likely “bootlegs” for lack of a better term. Probably sold outside of the stadiums by street vendors, and not sanctioned by MLB. Thus, they had a short run, and are lots tougher to find than most Pennants from the ‘70s.

[thetahat]

Who made these monstrosities?

[thetahat]

I have a few AdFlags but keep them all buried, never again to see daylight. Except for one. I think it’s an early AdFlag. Really soft - softer than my creepy bum Brooklyn AdFlag. It’s on the wall because of its rarity and because it’s the Phillies ... but it is so butt ugly I think I have to move it along. (Mark - we’ve discussed this one, as you know.) Somehow the AdFlag artists followed it up with something worse, that creepy Quaker on navy and then baby blue felt.

[thetahat]

Best baseball pennant “sets” in my opinion:

#1 Trench early 50s block letters (featuring Emmet Kelly, Uncle Sam head, Capitol building Senators). Classic, heavy soft felt

#2 WGN 1951-52 (featuring Cubs NL Anniversary pennant and Reds bomber - my avatar)

#3 ASCO 1969 cloth (white Pilots)

#4 Trench circa 1955 with TMC trademark (earliest Stadium pennants with Ebbets and Polo Grounds)

#5 late 40s unknown maker with the thin tassels and occasional airbrushed colors, this includes the angry Brownie

Best football set: early 60s Trench AFL

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

These two football pennants do indeed look like ADFLAG's work. They're monochrome, full body illustration, and tassel-less. Additionally, the steeler graphic was adapted from a larger rendition of the same player used for NFL and AFL pennants in the 1960s. And the matching texts confirms both were from the same maker.

When were these made do you suppose?

As to the baseball pennants ... I recognize most to be from ADFLAG. The Oakland A's one is by Trench. Not sure about the Padres one ... if made by Trench in 1969 or later I'd expect to see the MLB logo on it, which this lacks. Perhaps it was made in 1968, in anticipation of the team's creation? It's very similar to a white Padres pennant that Keezer made at the decade's end.

The Rangers, Royals, and Brewers one are a mystery to me....

The Astros one is an ADFLAG for sure.

Pretty safe to say the two football pennants are from late 1972. The Dolphins and Steelers met in the AFC Championship Game on Dec 31, 1972. Dolphins were on their way to wrapping up their 17-0 season. I don't think I've seen any other 1970s conference championship games commemorated with pennants like this.

[bocca001]

I can't get the Mariners pennant to open for some reason. Can someone post a screenshot?

I happen to like Greg's creepy Phillies pennant and I've see the Blue Quaker. I say put them up for Halloween.

[thetahat]

Marc, I can’t pull it up either but I know what it looks like. In my early collecting days the guys who seemed to have the biggest collection of pennants for sale was Adelson in Scottsdale. He had a list of pennants with B/W pics on photocopies, way overpriced. I remember thinking the Mariners was cool but it was like $200 or something and at the time I was still mostly into 70s and 80s.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Marc, I can’t pull it up either but I know what it looks like. In my early collecting days the guys who seemed to have the biggest collection of pennants for sale was Adelson in Scottsdale. He had a list of pennants with B/W pics on photocopies, way overpriced. I remember thinking the Mariners was cool but it was like $200 or something and at the time I was still mostly into 70s and 80s.

He still sells on ebay. Still way overpriced. I think he blocked me for saying it too.

[bocca001]

Just sold on ebay about two weeks ago. $249. It really is a cool/funky looking pennant.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Just sold on ebay about two weeks ago. $249. It really is a cool/funky looking pennant.

That's it.... thank you, Marc!!

I have one with the reverse colors (blue graphics on yellow felt). It's a little better looking, because the graphics come across more clearly.

This one is (IMHO) the only interesting Mariners Pennant ever made. Sorry, M's fans... but your franchise came along a little too late!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

That's it.... thank you, Marc!!

I have one with the reverse colors (blue graphics on yellow felt). It's a little better looking, because the graphics come across more clearly.

This one is (IMHO) the only interesting Mariners Pennant ever made. Sorry, M's fans... but your franchise came along a little too late!

At least the Mariners have one...The Seahawks have zero and they became a team first. Never see anything but helmet pennants for them.

[Fballguy]

This one is pretty cool for the Mariners. If not for aesthetics, for rarity.

[perezfan]

All right Rob... I stand corrected. That pennant is pretty cool. Is that one yours?

[Fballguy]

No...It sold about a week ago on ebay for $82. I was watching it but was in my "sell" phase so didn't see the point in chasing it.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Boy is that one brutally unattractive collection of pennants ... I swear I think the Ad Flag artist intended to scare little children with his sketches.

Are you talking condition or design? I actually like most of those (overlooking the giant hunks out of some). You know what they say, “Different strokes....”

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Are you talking condition or design? I actually like most of those (overlooking the giant hunks out of some). You know what they say, “Different strokes....”

I'm with you Rob. I dig these. Not sure what chomped on them but other than that, they're cool.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

For those intrigued by the late 60, early 70s, oddball and bootleg pennants...I found this picture pretty interesting.

1) I love finding lots of pennants from the same series/maker and it appears that is the case here. I recognize many Adflag designs. Are they all Adflag? The Astros, Expos, Royals, Padres appear to be similar to each other but not the others.

2) Many depict styles that are often attributed to earlier decades. This lot is clearly from the very late 60s or more likely early 70s. I know at least a few of these have felt counterparts and designs were often used over years so not really surprising. But is that the case here or are these copies/bootlegs? Hard to see for sure, but I don't see makers marks on any of them. The Mets for sure screams bootleg to me.

3) None have a MLB trademark. By the early 70s, were they mandatory? Was Adflag exempt from using one?

4) They are all monochrome which is a hint to Ad Flag, but Ad Flag started to produce multi colored pennants in the 1960s. Did they go back to monochrome or always continue to produce them?

5) If you're as interested in this as I am, raise your hand.

I believe this group was made in the Chicago area. This “style” were one of the larger pennant collections I purchased in the past. There was an equal “quality” football style as well. I purchased probably 100-200 pennants like this from a guy whose family were vendors in the 50’s and 60’s time selling between both Wrigley and Comiskey park as well as in Milwaukee. If I remember correctly the guy was in southern Wisconsin. I never saw the Rangers style, but I had many of the others. They were all that later 60’s felt, not the stiffer synthetic stuff from that era. These were all unsold stock that had been sitting for years.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Are you talking condition or design? I actually like most of those (overlooking the giant hunks out of some). You know what they say, “Different strokes....”

Correct, “to each his own”. It’s the Ad Flag graphics of which I am not a fan. This is mine .... is that a bat or a knapsack? Why the huge ears? What’s he about to step on? Brutal!

[thetahat]

I think I would hurt myself just trying to take this stance! Trench’s generic lefty hitter, on the other hand, has a sweet stroke...

[thetahat]

Would you leave your young child alone with this pennant?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Would you leave your young child alone with this pennant?

No, but all d**ger fans are a little creepy.

[bocca001]

These are pretty funny, Greg. Do you have the creepy light blue Quaker/Puritan Phillies pennant? If so, can you post a picture? I almost bought one a few years ago because it was so unusual, but I didn't save a picture.

[thetahat]

Nah don’t have it and can’t find a picture. I think Google flagged it for being too offensive.

This one also makes my eyes bleed. The Giant is about 90% legs!

[bocca001]

I found the Phillies pennant. Different company, right? (because of the tassels).

He actually doesn't look very creepy compared to the others.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I found the Phillies pennant.

Oh! I actually like that one! I was referring to the same pennant I have pictured, just different felt. I dig this one, would love to pick that one up if it were available.

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Did we ever determine whether that same newspaper (or another newspaper) ever released a similar pennant series for National League teams around the year 1913? I can't say I've ever seen a "BROOKLYN" pennant that was 10" x 30," had 3-D sewn letters, and multi-colored tassels before.

I'm thinking probably not, as Detroit was solely an American League city; and the Detroit Free Press likely didn't cover the National League teams too much in those days.

But who's to say another newspaper from a National League city wouldn't have tried the same promo using NL teams?

Attached are a few Detroit Free Press clippings I obtained. I believe some of these were listed before? Although I don’t have advertisements listing all NL pennants, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Brooklyn are all references which leads me to believe these and other NL teams were likely produced (or were intended to be). They also reference the ‘two color shaded letters’ and ‘two-colored strings’.

[Domer05]

Holy smokes, Erik! Where on earth did you unearth all these vintage ads?

Well, you just made some pennant owner out there enormously happy because their ca. 1913 "BROOKLYN" travel/souvenir pennant is now proven beyond any doubt to be a baseball pennant.

They may owe you dinner

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

For those intrigued by the late 60, early 70s, oddball and bootleg pennants...I found this picture pretty interesting.

1) I love finding lots of pennants from the same series/maker and it appears that is the case here. I recognize many Adflag designs. Are they all Adflag? The Astros, Expos, Royals, Padres appear to be similar to each other but not the others.

2) Many depict styles that are often attributed to earlier decades. This lot is clearly from the very late 60s or more likely early 70s. I know at least a few of these have felt counterparts and designs were often used over years so not really surprising. But is that the case here or are these copies/bootlegs? Hard to see for sure, but I don't see makers marks on any of them. The Mets for sure screams bootleg to me.

3) None have a MLB trademark. By the early 70s, were they mandatory? Was Adflag exempt from using one?

4) They are all monochrome which is a hint to Ad Flag, but Ad Flag started to produce multi colored pennants in the 1960s. Did they go back to monochrome or always continue to produce them?

5) If you're as interested in this as I am, raise your hand.

Don Draper (Mad Men) is raising his hand

[Fballguy]

Great stuff Erik!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Don Draper (Mad Men) is raising his hand

Haha...That's good company. Just read the article. How'd you find it? I wonder if that pennant really dates to 1965?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Haha...That's good company. Just read the article. How'd you find it? I wonder if that pennant really dates to 1965?

Not long ago I binged the series, and I remembered seeing it, so I just googled “Mad Men Mets pennant” and it came up!

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Holy smokes, Erik! Where on earth did you unearth all these vintage ads?

Well, you just made some pennant owner out there enormously happy because their ca. 1913 "BROOKLYN" travel/souvenir pennant is now proven beyond any doubt to be a baseball pennant.

They may owe you dinner

It honestly was a fluke find. I stumbled across a guy who had a bunch of newspaper and magazine clippings, and I randomly found a pennant advertisement without even thinking to look for one (I like history). I told him if he had additional ones, I'd be interested. And he found some! I paid between $7-$15 per, but it was worth it to save the history and share with the Community. Although I half thought to secretly hoard the knowledge, collect all the pennants listed, then post my findings

It would be cool to go to a Detroit library and look up 1913 Detroit Free Press publications (Sunday edition) on microfilm. Heck, maybe this stuff is all digital and online now? Greg and Marc, do you work for Universities and know how the average Joe can look into this sort of thing?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by erikc21

It honestly was a fluke find. I stumbled across a guy who had a bunch of newspaper and magazine clippings, and I randomly found a pennant advertisement without even thinking to look for one (I like history). I told him if he had additional ones, I'd be interested. And he found some! I paid between $7-$15 per, but it was worth it to save the history and share with the Community. Although I half thought to secretly hoard the knowledge, collect all the pennants listed, then post my findings

It would be cool to go to a Detroit library and look up 1913 Detroit Free Press publications (Sunday edition) on microfilm. Heck, maybe this stuff is all digital and online now? Greg and Marc, do you work for Universities and know how the average Joe can look into this sort of thing?

Erik, yep I’m at a 4 year school, although we only have access to the Philly paper archives. Don’t know if it is all digital. Still, very cool find!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by erikc21

It honestly was a fluke find. I stumbled across a guy who had a bunch of newspaper and magazine clippings, and I randomly found a pennant advertisement without even thinking to look for one (I like history). I told him if he had additional ones, I'd be interested. And he found some! I paid between $7-$15 per, but it was worth it to save the history and share with the Community. Although I half thought to secretly hoard the knowledge, collect all the pennants listed, then post my findings

It would be cool to go to a Detroit library and look up 1913 Detroit Free Press publications (Sunday edition) on microfilm. Heck, maybe this stuff is all digital and online now? Greg and Marc, do you work for Universities and know how the average Joe can look into this sort of thing?

Still on eBay, and priced very reasonably...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Scarce-1913...AAAOSwLdtepJmx

This is definitely from the set, and would go very nicely with those ads, Erik

ps. I have no affiliation with the pennant or the seller. Just trying to add some value!

[perezfan]

Here's another...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1913-D...EAAOSw-oRepJq7

Reversed color scheme, but priced quite a bit higher.

This Detroit version definitely surfaces more than the others. Was hoping a few other teams would eventually turn up after the sale of the complete A.L. Set. But it's looking like the winning bidder wanted to keep the set in tact, rather than piece it out.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Here's another...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1913-D...EAAOSw-oRepJq7

Reversed color scheme, but priced quite a bit higher.

This Detroit version definitely surfaces more than the others. Was hoping a few other teams would eventually turn up after the sale of the complete A.L. Set. But it's looking like the winning bidder wanted to keep the set in tact, rather than piece it out.

Pretty strong provenance on the black one.