NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for BSelling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-28-2020, 05:44 AM
bobbyw8469's Avatar
bobbyw8469 bobbyw8469 is offline
Robert Williams
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 6,454
Default A Cautionary Tale - Water and removing gunk.

I have read with great interest the various threads of people removing "gunk" on their cards with distilled water. I don't have many cards with "gunk" on them, but let me say my horror stories with them. I have tried to remove gunk on cards with simple water and nylon rubbing with disastrous results. Ironically, both are these cards are from 1933. Maybe I should have left well enough alone. If I had allowed the gunk to stay, would these cards have been no better than 1's??

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-28-2020, 06:27 AM
conor912's Avatar
conor912 conor912 is offline
C0nor D0na.hue
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Default

Yes, its noticeable, but i wouldn’t say they’re ruined. I have only ever heard of the nylon trick solely for dry removal of wax buildup. I would Personally never ever rub the surface of a card with anything with water introduced.
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-28-2020, 06:39 AM
thatkidfromjerrymaguire thatkidfromjerrymaguire is offline
John Donovan
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 170
Default

I think maybe it’s a skill you have to practice with. I tried soaking a couple of commons (a 1933 Goudey and a 1952 Bowman) to try and remove some gunk and brighten their appearance. They both definitely looked worse after I soaked them (I think I was too aggressive on the gunk removal process).

I know there are people on here that swear by that process, but I think I’ll just leave it to the experts
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-28-2020, 06:41 AM
x2drich2000 x2drich2000 is online now
(DJ) Rich.ard.s
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,679
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by conor912 View Post
Yes, its noticeable, but i wouldn’t say they’re ruined. I have only ever heard of the nylon trick solely for dry removal of wax buildup. I would Personally never ever rub the surface of a card with anything with water introduced.
Ditto, I would think water would raise the paper fibers and the nylon would then act like sand paper removing those fibers (along with the ink). Water can be good if you just need to get something loose like paper that is glued on.
__________________
Current Wantlist:
E93 - Cobb
E92 Nadja - Bescher, Bridwell, Cobb, Crawford, Donovan, Doolan, Doyle (with bat), Evers, Kleinow, Lobert, Mathewson, Tinker, Wagner (throwing), Zimmerman
W554 - Anyone with any red backstamp, Fonseca, Klein, Rommel
E/T Young Backrun - Need E90-1, E92 black Crofts Candy, E92 Dockman, E101, T216 (all versions)
E92 Red Crofts - Anyone especially Barry, Shean, and Evers
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-28-2020, 06:47 AM
bobbyw8469's Avatar
bobbyw8469 bobbyw8469 is offline
Robert Williams
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 6,454
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatkidfromjerrymaguire View Post
I think maybe it’s a skill you have to practice with. I tried soaking a couple of commons (a 1933 Goudey and a 1952 Bowman) to try and remove some gunk and brighten their appearance. They both definitely looked worse after I soaked them (I think I was too aggressive on the gunk removal process).

I know there are people on here that swear by that process, but I think I’ll just leave it to the experts
I'm with you John. I guess I still have a lot to learn about the hobby.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-28-2020, 07:11 AM
toppcat's Avatar
toppcat toppcat is offline
Dave.Horn.ish
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,304
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by conor912 View Post
Yes, its noticeable, but i wouldn’t say they’re ruined. I have only ever heard of the nylon trick solely for dry removal of wax buildup. I would Personally never ever rub the surface of a card with anything with water introduced.
I find plain white paper towels will remove wax from a card front with ease.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-28-2020, 07:18 AM
bobbyw8469's Avatar
bobbyw8469 bobbyw8469 is offline
Robert Williams
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 6,454
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by toppcat View Post
I find plain white paper towels will remove wax from a card front with ease.
That's not really wax. That's gunk. An unknown substance.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-28-2020, 08:15 AM
Shoeless Moe Shoeless Moe is offline
Paul Gruszka aka P Diddy G, Cambo, Fluke, Jagr, PG13, Bon Jokey, Paulie Walnuts, Most Blocked Poster
Pa.ul Grus.zka
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Over by there
Posts: 3,341
Default

Tony Gunk?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-28-2020, 08:52 AM
brob28's Avatar
brob28 brob28 is online now
Bi11..R0berts
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 994
Default

I have found that Goudey's don't soak as well as other cards such as T-206's. I've had good results removing paper and glue from past scrapbook adhesion, but not much else.
__________________
Successful transactions with: Chesboro41, jimivintage, Bocabirdman, marcdelpercio, Smanzari, asoriano, pclpads, joem36, nolemmings, t206blogcom, Northviewcats, Xplainer, Kickstand19, GrayGhost, btcarfango, Brian Van Horn

Last edited by brob28; 07-29-2020 at 03:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-28-2020, 09:10 AM
rhettyeakley's Avatar
rhettyeakley rhettyeakley is offline
Rhett Yeakley
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,233
Default

Goudey's (along with modern Topps/Bowman) do not soak well at all. They are not constructed the same way as cards like T206.

T206 cards & many other early sets had the ink directly applied to the paper board itself, which was a single piece of board stock. If you notice Goudey's, Topps, Bowman's are actually very thin layers of paper attached to the front (and in the case of Goudey's-back) and that thin layer is easily damaged as in this case.

You got 2 different tips mixed up in your head. You NEVER apply any pressure when soaking to the surface itself, at most you simply take the pad of your thumb and in a circular motion apply just the slightest amount of pressure or with the tip of a fluffed/teased Q-tip... never use a nylon or anything abrasive.

NYLONS--use only on dry (not soaked) cards for the removal of wax stains, this works on fronts of cards as the wax is on top of the thin layer of paper that has the image (not part of the actual stock but glued to it, conversely this doesn't really work on the back of most Topps cards at that surface is the board stock itself and the wax will actually soak slightly into the stock itself.

Also, take note for soaking that things start getting really murky in the mid-to-late 1920's (but mostly early 1930's). Up to that point most glue used by old-time collectors was paste, either store bought or home-made flour/water mixture. While paste can stain it is also VERY water soluble and can be removed if you know what to do. By the late 1920's/early 1930's people started using more industrial type "glue" to adhere things and often this glue is almost impossible to remove using simple water, normally some other type of solvent is necessary (if at all possible). Elmer's Glue for example is NOT water soluble in any way.
__________________
Check out my website www.StarsOfTheDiamond.com
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-28-2020, 10:27 AM
todeen todeen is offline
Tim Odeen
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 741
Default

I have read in another thread some people use mineral spirits. What is that used for?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
__________________
Collecting '61 Topps, Tris Speaker, 1930-45 Cincinnati Reds, T206 Cincinnati
Successful deals with: Banksfan14, Brianp-beme, Bumpus Jones, Dacubfan (x5), Ed_Hutchinson, Luke, Nineunder71, Powdered H20, Sebie43, and Wondo
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-28-2020, 10:30 AM
todeen todeen is offline
Tim Odeen
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 741
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhettyeakley View Post

Also, take note for soaking that things start getting really murky in the mid-to-late 1920's (but mostly early 1930's). Up to that point most glue used by old-time collectors was paste, either store bought or home-made flour/water mixture. While paste can stain it is also VERY water soluble and can be removed if you know what to do. By the late 1920's/early 1930's people started using more industrial type "glue" to adhere things and often this glue is almost impossible to remove using simple water, normally some other type of solvent is necessary (if at all possible). Elmer's Glue for example is NOT water soluble in any way.
OT: same goes for wood working. At some point people stopped using HYDE GLUE, which is water soluble. If you are trying to repair an antique, don't use modern wood glue. Use hyde glue. Then you can fix your mistake if you screw up.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
__________________
Collecting '61 Topps, Tris Speaker, 1930-45 Cincinnati Reds, T206 Cincinnati
Successful deals with: Banksfan14, Brianp-beme, Bumpus Jones, Dacubfan (x5), Ed_Hutchinson, Luke, Nineunder71, Powdered H20, Sebie43, and Wondo
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-28-2020, 11:28 AM
conor912's Avatar
conor912 conor912 is offline
C0nor D0na.hue
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by todeen View Post
I have read in another thread some people use mineral spirits. What is that used for?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Mineral spirits, as well as acetone, paint thinner, gasoline, etc, will all break down adhesives that aren’t water soluble. They’re used for cleaning oil based paints, glues, etc.
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-28-2020, 11:48 AM
tschock tschock is offline
T@yl0r $ch0ck
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 1,212
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhettyeakley View Post
Also, take note for soaking that things start getting really murky in the mid-to-late 1920's (but mostly early 1930's). Up to that point most glue used by old-time collectors was paste, either store bought or home-made flour/water mixture. While paste can stain it is also VERY water soluble and can be removed if you know what to do. By the late 1920's/early 1930's people started using more industrial type "glue" to adhere things and often this glue is almost impossible to remove using simple water, normally some other type of solvent is necessary (if at all possible). Elmer's Glue for example is NOT water soluble in any way.
Rhett,

I might be misreading the above, but I know up to the early 1950's you can soak cards to remove paste/glue stuck to the backs of cards and I have done so successfully (recently with some 1939 Playballs). After the early 1950's, it almost assuredly will not work.

If you meant that up to the 1930's, you could remove the items without leaving a stain/mark from the paste, that might be true and I apologize if I misunderstood.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-28-2020, 12:43 PM
rhettyeakley's Avatar
rhettyeakley rhettyeakley is offline
Rhett Yeakley
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,233
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tschock View Post
Rhett,

I might be misreading the above, but I know up to the early 1950's you can soak cards to remove paste/glue stuck to the backs of cards and I have done so successfully (recently with some 1939 Playballs). After the early 1950's, it almost assuredly will not work.

If you meant that up to the 1930's, you could remove the items without leaving a stain/mark from the paste, that might be true and I apologize if I misunderstood.
It just 100% depends on the type of glue/paste used. If they used water soluble glue/paste to adhere the cards they should be removable BUT by the 1930's the non-water soluble glue was more widely available and that becomes the norm vs the exception.
__________________
Check out my website www.StarsOfTheDiamond.com
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-28-2020, 01:40 PM
BabyRuth's Avatar
BabyRuth BabyRuth is offline
Jim
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: MA
Posts: 363
Default

This thread could have also been titled:
"How to turn your VG cards into Authentic Altered in 1 easy step"
__________________
Always looking to buy Babe Ruth cards!!

Successful transactions:
BlueDevil89,shoelessjoe_in_hof,MMantle7,OriolesHOF ,bigfish,biggies,danf19,rjackson44,sayitaintso,big fanNY,ForeverYoung,davesresaleshop,pencil1974,Bria nVanHorn,BleedinBlue,Brailey,Jobu,timn1,sterlingfo x,JAP78,scmavl,leftygrove10,TheBig6,
Eric-Goudeyhunter,Econteachert205,MoonlightGraham,rats6 0,ValKehl,inceptus,vintagewhitesox,robkas68,mybudd yinc,rman444,sportscardpete,HasselhoffsCheeseburge r,itjclarke,mjsilvey80,Joem36,JMANOS
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-28-2020, 01:47 PM
ejharrington ejharrington is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 406
Default

Water and cardboard baseball cards should never be mixed.
__________________
Contact me if you have any Dave Kingman cards / memorabilia for sale.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-28-2020, 03:14 PM
bobbyw8469's Avatar
bobbyw8469 bobbyw8469 is offline
Robert Williams
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 6,454
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyRuth View Post
This thread could have also been titled:
"How to turn your VG cards into Authentic Altered in 1 easy step"
Do you think cards with gunk on them would be graded PSA 3???? That is technically very good. I thought gunk can be no higher than PSA 1?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-28-2020, 03:33 PM
BabyRuth's Avatar
BabyRuth BabyRuth is offline
Jim
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: MA
Posts: 363
Default

Here's a few cards with gunk that graded higher than 1
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 21Root.jpg (74.6 KB, 249 views)
File Type: jpg 12_Mclean.jpg (73.0 KB, 248 views)
__________________
Always looking to buy Babe Ruth cards!!

Successful transactions:
BlueDevil89,shoelessjoe_in_hof,MMantle7,OriolesHOF ,bigfish,biggies,danf19,rjackson44,sayitaintso,big fanNY,ForeverYoung,davesresaleshop,pencil1974,Bria nVanHorn,BleedinBlue,Brailey,Jobu,timn1,sterlingfo x,JAP78,scmavl,leftygrove10,TheBig6,
Eric-Goudeyhunter,Econteachert205,MoonlightGraham,rats6 0,ValKehl,inceptus,vintagewhitesox,robkas68,mybudd yinc,rman444,sportscardpete,HasselhoffsCheeseburge r,itjclarke,mjsilvey80,Joem36,JMANOS
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-28-2020, 09:21 PM
Tyruscobb Tyruscobb is offline
member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 82
Default

I’ve successfully soaked T-206 and Crackerjack cards. I recently attempted a 1933 Goudey. Unfortunately, it did not work. The kid apparently did not use a water-based glue (thanks kid from 1933). Moreover, the card began separating near the edge. I quickly pulled it out, and will accept my A or 1.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-28-2020, 09:31 PM
FrankWakefield FrankWakefield is offline
Frank Wakefield
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Franklin KY
Posts: 1,994
Default

Nylons... what Rhett said. DRY cards only, gentle and patient.

Buy a T58 fish card and soak it. I'm talking immersed in water for a day or two. You'll see dirt accumulate in the bottom of the glass or cup. The card stock in a T58 is the same as a T206. Some gunk can be gently nudged loose from the surface. Don't get aggressive and dig craters in the card. Buy a few dirty, gritty, worn, gunky T58's on eBay. search 'tobacco fish card', maybe add Sweet Caporal to the search. I think most folks who are selling T58's are unaware of the Burdick designation. T=twentieth century, 58=58th series of tobacco card cataloged. (N was for nineteenth century) Practice soaking...

Goudey cards and other 30's cards (eg; National Chicle Sky Birds) area a sandwich of different papers. There's a nice piece of paper atop the front, inside is paper with a thicker coarser pulp. You can soak them, but not for a long time at all. Practice on a beater card or two.

Blot those cards. If you soak it you gotta get the water back out. Blot and press them. A few paper towels, nice white typing paper, then stack some books on top. Blot for half an hour or so then change blotting paper.

Someone on this board knows or remembers more chemistry than I do... water is a universal polar solvent. the outer hydrogen atoms line up oddly, they are polarized to 107 degrees I think. Not 180 degrees... Alcohol oil mineral spirits, that stuff is non polar, the outer at0ms space out symmetrically. Simply put, oil and water don't mix well... If tempera paint is on a window, wash that off with water, not paint thinner. If oil paint spills on the floor, don't get some paper towels doused with water, you need mineral spirits.

If there's a water based ink on a card, then soaking it is gonna weaken the ink and it'll bleed across the card. If it's a permanent or oil based ink, a LITTLE soaking shouldn't make the ink spread.

Consider adhesive tape on the back of a card.... water soaking may ease that tape off, but you're fooling yourself because what really may have happened is the paper loosened and separated, and your now freed piece of tape will have tiny bits of card surface still attached. So what to do... get out 91% isopropyl alcohol. Try that on a bit of gunk.

NOTE WELL: the printing ink when the card was made was almost certainly a non polar ink. That means that your non polar solvent will dissolve it, remove it, discolor it. A Qtip is a useful tool...

I've used lighter fluid to return dried cellophane tape gum to a softer more pliable state when removing it from the back of Goudy cards. Again, slow and gentle. Then, after doing that, I washed it up a bit with rubbing alcohol (think several hours and time passing on this, it isn't a two minute process) on Qtips. I mainly did this to work on the adhesive color left on the card back, but also to help dissipate and diminish the long lasting scent of the lighter fluid.

I don't mind a bunch of haters blasting soaking... consider that I don't send cards off to get graded. But I have broken out several dozen cards outa plastic slabs. I've saved a bunch of slips. It's my card. If I gently erase a pencil mark that wasn't on the card originally, then my card looks better and more like it did when first released to the public. I'm not grading and scamming anyone, I'm not painting or adding color or trimming... Realistically, most of the nice T206s that are in slabs were flour pasted into scrapbooks 100+ years ago and were soaked off in the 50s and 60s. Yes, soaked in bunches. The scrapbook pages would go in a tub, add water. Let soak overnight. Next morning the cards have floated to the top. Rinse them a time or two with clean water, blot and press... Golly, the great corners on most of today's cards survived because of the protection the scrapbook afforded. Cards left in the hands of grubby snot nosed kids (like I was at 8, 9, 10...) those cards look like most of the candy cards, with round corners, think E90-1s and ZeeNuts).

Taking nylons to a wet Goudy card gives me a mental image of me working on a scratch on my car with steel wool and a can of spray paint.

Last edited by FrankWakefield; 07-29-2020 at 12:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-28-2020, 09:51 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 6,253
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by todeen View Post
I have read in another thread some people use mineral spirits. What is that used for?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I wouldn't use mineral spirits. The inks used in lithography are oil based, and mineral spirits (Or any other oil based solvent) may dissolve them.
There will always be exceptions, some inks may have a hardening oil as the base, but unless you know for sure it's a coin toss on losing some of the ink.

To me that also crosses the line into altering.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-28-2020, 10:04 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 6,253
Default

The cards that soak well, like T206s are almost always on coated stock.
The paper is a group of assorted fibers, with some sizing, which could be as simple as starch, or could be some other more adhesive like substance.

If having the colors come out brighter an a bit shiny is desirable, the paper is coated with a claylike substance on one or both sides.

If you've got water soluble stuff on the coated side, it will generally come off easily with water, as the hardened surface is sort of like pottery but thin enough to be flexible. If like many have it's developed microscopic cracks, fine gunk will soak into the fibers in the cracks and probably won't come out. (And to me it's both questionable AND way too much work to try.)

T206 backs are not coated, and it's much harder to remove gunk from the backs. *

As others have said, Goudeys are a sandwich of some pretty rough cardstock for the back and most of the card, with a layer of regular uncoated paper on the front. Gunk will be difficult to get off, and damage is almost guaranteed.

*The even better news is that I believe T206s are on a high rag content stock that's nearly acid free. Unlike many strip cards they'll probably be with us for a very long time.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-01-2020, 06:55 PM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 29,207
Default

Good info in this thread. I have soaked a few cards with good results. Patting them with wet paper tissue can get some scrapbook crud off. I still think that soaking discolors white areas a tiny bit on most cards. Makes them a shade darker...not a lot but a little. That's my experience anyway and most times it still beats the alternative.

.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water damage help asap ruth-gehrig Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 33 08-02-2017 03:58 PM
OT: Cautionary tale of Screen names bn2cardz Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 7 04-21-2015 09:51 AM
PSA-A Cautionary Tale! MBMiller25 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 274 11-06-2013 05:54 AM
Water and (gasp!) OJs birdman42 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 7 01-07-2011 08:53 AM
Cards and water don't mix Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 5 11-10-2003 12:31 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:07 PM.


ebay GSB