Will this stock market madness affect cards?

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The card is selling strong in all grades.

eBay competed auctions are remaining very strong across all genres.

I get it everyone is waiting for the shoe to drop but so far after a historic route in stock and bond prices it hasn’t happened.

We are only in the first inning. The virus and layoffs are only getting started. Unfortunately, they are no where near peaking. Some economists and health officials estimate that will not occur until July. You can tout short-term auction prices and result all you want.

I’m not worried about an auction result currently going on right now. Let’s see what happens down the road. Revisit this issue in 6 months. Just like those 4 senators that were telling Americans everything would be fine a few weeks ago, while they liquidated their portfolios.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

We are only in the first inning. The virus and layoffs are only getting started. Unfortunately, they are no where near peaking. Some economists and health officials estimate that will not occur until July. You can tout short-term auction prices and result all you want.

I’m not worried about an auction result currently going on right now. Let’s see what happens down the road. Revisit this issue in 6 months. Just like those 4 senators that were telling Americans everything would be fine a few weeks ago, while they liquidated their portfolios.

I totally agree with this sentiment and this is not even taking into account the likelihood that this card has been altered!!!
Seems like it’s already a non-issue?

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

We are only in the first inning. The virus and layoffs are only getting started. Unfortunately, they are no where near peaking. Some economists and health officials estimate that will not occur until July. You can tout short-term auction prices and result all you want.

I’m not worried about an auction result currently going on right now. Let’s see what happens down the road. Revisit this issue in 6 months. Just like those 4 senators that were telling Americans everything would be fine a few weeks ago, while they liquidated their portfolios.

Exactly, this thing is only getting started.

I don’t think people fully realize how integrated commerce is. We are going to hit depression era employment levels. GDP levels we haven’t seen in 20 years. RE market is going to get crushed and I bet a significant portion of the hobby is debt financed.

The best and most desirable cards will be fine but they represent a very small portion of the overall hobby. My guess is overall transaction volume has dropped substantially and will continue to drop. April is when millions of Americans won’t be receiving any income, for now most folks layed off are getting their two weeks.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by japhi

Exactly, this thing is only getting started.

I don’t think people fully realize how integrated commerce is. We are going to hit depression era employment levels. GDP levels we haven’t seen in 20 years. RE market is going to get crushed and I bet a significant portion of the hobby is debt financed.

The best and most desirable cards will be fine but they represent a very small portion of the overall hobby. My guess is overall transaction volume has dropped substantially and will continue to drop. April is when millions of Americans won’t be receiving any income, for now most folks layed off are getting their two weeks.

Matt I agree with most of what you said, spot on. However, I do not see depression era employment levels coming.......

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Matt I agree with most of what you said, spot on. However, I do not see depression era employment levels coming.......

I sure hope you are right but 2mm people will make UI claims this week. Last week in Canada we had 500k claims - 20x increase yoy. And most employers have ‘t even made a move yet. Early April is going to be ugly.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Matt I agree with most of what you said, spot on. However, I do not see depression era employment levels coming.......

Unfortunately, the Secretary of the Treasury told the Senate that is exactly what to expect, they are just trying to hide this info (too).

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/mnuc...urce-says.html

After the information leaked, the Treasury later walked it back to "not a projection" status.

Meanwhile, on Main Street, several of my clients contacted me last week with questions about how to lay off their entire staffs.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

We are only in the first inning. The virus and layoffs are only getting started. Unfortunately, they are no where near peaking. Some economists and health officials estimate that will not occur until July. You can tout short-term auction prices and result all you want.

I’m not worried about an auction result currently going on right now. Let’s see what happens down the road. Revisit this issue in 6 months. Just like those 4 senators that were telling Americans everything would be fine a few weeks ago, while they liquidated their portfolios.

As fast and viscous as the move lower in stock and bond prices have been I would imagine most that expect a significant correction in card prices would think that is what we would be seeing right now.

PWCC has 8,795 active listings and there is still a ton of money being spent on cards.

I get it most on here despise them but in order to see what is actually taking place with cards you have no choice but to watch their auctions. Whether anyone likes it or not they are still getting the lion share of the best cards on EBAY and I maintain the opinion they are more like a stock exchange than a dealer and I like to follow prices.

There is a wide range of outcomes that can come from this disaster. Business in this country can't stay closed for long as some are estimating without destroying the economy and I believe this will force us to get back to work faster. So far while this has hit all 50 states it is clearly a bigger issue in just a few and so hopefully regionally we see a faster acceleration of normalcy.

Time will tell how this plays out.

In terms of your last comment. Part of the story is fake news. The woman from GA is innocent and just as I proved on this board Joe Orlando was with his stock option exercise program some will believe it regardless because they simply want too.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Matt I agree with most of what you said, spot on. However, I do not see depression era employment levels coming.......

Social distancing was already employed at grocery stores and McDonald's with those self check out machines. My wife and I bet that more stores will begin to employ them as we move into the future.

Read an article from MIT, it said the hardest hit population from this newest recession will be the low end wage worker that can easily be replaced. It wondered aloud about how universal incomes are laughed at now, but might become a more serious debate going forward.

While I too doubt a great depression era unemployment percentage, if the USA really wanted a stimulus package, it would invest 3 trillion into highways, bridges, and modernizing dams. Lots of bodies with shovels, cdl, and biceps needed. College degree not required.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Exhibitman]

This just reported:

Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis President James Bullard predicted the U.S. unemployment rate may hit 30% in the second quarter because of shutdowns to combat the coronavirus, with an unprecedented 50% drop in gross domestic product.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

What's a trimmer to do? Just use sgc and "only" realize a smaller profit

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Maybe the card trimmers will now file for unemployment. With their partner in crime (PSA) now closed, their ability to earn an income is adversely impacted.

Moser, Mathis, Thorn, Adams, Block, Tuttle, Pevarnick and the rest should at least try to file for Unemployment, and see what happens. Without PSA, they are basically in the same boat as the rest of us!

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

there are a number of you I would prefer stand many more than 6 feet away from me...……….

Henry- I couldn't agree more.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

As fast and viscous as the move lower in stock and bond prices have been I would imagine most that expect a significant correction in card prices would think that is what we would be seeing right now.

PWCC has 8,795 active listings and there is still a ton of money being spent on cards.

I get it most on here despise them but in order to see what is actually taking place with cards you have no choice but to watch their auctions. Whether anyone likes it or not they are still getting the lion share of the best cards on EBAY and I maintain the opinion they are more like a stock exchange than a dealer and I like to follow prices.

There is a wide range of outcomes that can come from this disaster. Business in this country can't stay closed for long as some are estimating without destroying the economy and I believe this will force us to get back to work faster. So far while this has hit all 50 states it is clearly a bigger issue in just a few and so hopefully regionally we see a faster acceleration of normalcy.

Time will tell how this plays out.

In terms of your last comment. Part of the story is fake news. The woman from GA is innocent and just as I proved on this board Joe Orlando was with his stock option exercise program some will believe it regardless because they simply want too.

Regarding PWCC sales, the proper way to track market direction is not number if items, or high profile item sale price. The way to see where we are headed would be YOY volume by auction. So what is total transaction volume March 2019 vs 2020. And considering we are really only two weeks into this, and the auction that just closed was 90 days in the works, I don’t think it is a good data point, or any data point since we don’t know YOY. In fact, as this thing expands I expect PWCC listings to increase as supply outstrips demand.

I am going to assume that cards will trend in the same direction all consumer spending is trending...way the fook down. I have a very hard time believing that equities, PM’s, discretionary purchases like cars and RV’s, soon RE , will all trend down, significantly, and card prices will hold. It would defy logic for that to happen.

I do expect shilling and all the shenanigans we are used to, to increase as the pinheads in the hobby try and keep the illusion of strong prices alive. But there is no way trillions evaporates from GDP and a fringe investment like sportscards doesn’t take a beating. First week in April is when SHTF and ten million people hit EI.

Again, hope I am wrong, my family is heavily impacted ( but fortunately work for a great company and will be ok).

[Johnny630]

I’m worried about the people who will panic cut or run when they open their 401k/IRA retirement statements.

Redemption calls.

[Golfcollector]

Dow Futures Sunday night, hit the circuit breaker about 5 minutes into the open at 6 PM EST. Down 984 I believe, so we are just above 18K now for the Dow Jones.

[sreader3]

All of the threads over the years saying that stocks are an investment and cards are a hobby seem pretty questionable. Right now, I wish I had 50% of my net worth in cards and 3% in stocks, instead of the other way around.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by japhi

Regarding PWCC sales, the proper way to track market direction is not number if items, or high profile item sale price. The way to see where we are headed would be YOY volume by auction. So what is total transaction volume March 2019 vs 2020. And considering we are really only two weeks into this, and the auction that just closed was 90 days in the works, I don’t think it is a good data point, or any data point since we don’t know YOY. In fact, as this thing expands I expect PWCC listings to increase as supply outstrips demand.

I am going to assume that cards will trend in the same direction all consumer spending is trending...way the fook down. I have a very hard time believing that equities, PM’s, discretionary purchases like cars and RV’s, soon RE , will all trend down, significantly, and card prices will hold. It would defy logic for that to happen.

I do expect shilling and all the shenanigans we are used to, to increase as the pinheads in the hobby try and keep the illusion of strong prices alive. But there is no way trillions evaporates from GDP and a fringe investment like sportscards doesn’t take a beating. First week in April is when SHTF and ten million people hit EI.

Again, hope I am wrong, my family is heavily impacted ( but fortunately work for a great company and will be ok).

The point was simply if a seller who has over 8,000 active listings is to be avoided from watching you are missing the market. They get the best cards. The best cards drive the market.

I like to follow trading card auctions to see what is taking place in the hobby. There is no better seller to follow than PWCC to get a broad range of cards.

I went through my purchases today on EBAY and I have won seven cards from their auctions since January of 2018. I am very pleased with the buys and if someone wants to buy cards they simply can't just exclude them if they want to advance their collection.

There are a multitude of cards getting action right now and maybe these buyers haven't gotten the word that the market has collapsed or unemployment is set to explode. Maybe they don't care. I don't know the answer but you don't see a drought yet in cards.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by sreader3

All of the threads over the years saying that stocks are an investment and cards are a hobby seem pretty questionable. Right now, I wish I had 50% of my net worth in cards and 3% in stocks, instead of the other way around.

If the richest 1% are heavily invested it's good for you too. But they are also diversified in art, automobiles, cards, coins, jewelry, land/rental property, etc. Its good to have a balanced portfolio.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by todeen

It's good to have a balanced portfolio.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Could not agree more.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The point was simply if a seller who has over 8,000 active listings is to be avoided from watching you are missing the market. They get the best cards. The best cards drive the market.

I like to follow trading card auctions to see what is taking place in the hobby. There is no better seller to follow than PWCC to get a broad range of cards.

I went through my purchases today on EBAY and I have won seven cards from their auctions since January of 2018. I am very pleased with the buys and if someone wants to buy cards they simply can't just exclude them if they want to advance their collection.

There are a multitude of cards getting action right now and maybe these buyers haven't gotten the word that the market has collapsed or unemployment is set to explode. Maybe they don't care. I don't know the answer but you don't see a drought yet in cards.

Well this thread is about the overall card market and price predictions, not PWCC. PWCC having lots of listings is not a data point. I would expect their listing to go UP in times like this. Similar to RE, lot of listings represents a buyers market.

And who cares if there is lots of action. There is lots of action in equity markets right now, volumes are historic. Would you agree then that equity markets are doing well?

I enjoy you as a poster here and on CU - optimism and supporting the hobby is a good thing. But we are going through a once in a lifetime event. PWCC’s own index ffs shows that broadly cards have been flat since 2016 and that was in the best of times - 4 percent UE, RE markets exploding and free money.

As a fellow guy in finance, what is your outlook for the economy and how does that dovetail with your outlook on cards? Who cares about PWCC, how do you feel cards will perform in 12-18% UE and negative 20% GDP? You can’t be one of the “this will pass soon” guys?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by japhi

Well this thread is about the overall card market and price predictions, not PWCC. PWCC having lots of listings is not a data point. I would expect their listing to go UP in times like this. Similar to RE, lot of listings represents a buyers market.

And who cares if there is lots of action. There is lots of action in equity markets right now, volumes are historic. Would you agree then that equity markets are doing well?

I enjoy you as a poster here and on CU - optimism and supporting the hobby is a good thing. But we are going through a once in a lifetime event. PWCC’s own index ffs shows that broadly cards have been flat since 2016 and that was in the best of times - 4 percent UE, RE markets exploding and free money.

As a fellow guy in finance, what is your outlook for the economy and how does that dovetail with your outlook on cards? Who cares about PWCC, how do you feel cards will perform in 12-18% UE and negative 20% GDP? You can’t be one of the “this will pass soon” guys?

There was a comment earlier about people still watching PWCC listings. The answer is yes I still do. I don't see how someone can't.

EBAY is a real time market place. The same data that is available to stock market participants is available to those buying cards. These same people can turn on the news and see the horror show. Why are they still bidding on cards? I don't know. I know I have been trolling EBAY looking for stuff to buy at the same pace during this entire market meltdown. If something I want shows up I am buying it. 100% of my card buys have come from monthly cash flow and I assume there are plenty of others who have a similar situation.

I put more money into cards in 2010 then any other year and that was a horrible time for the economy and highly uncertain for me in finance. In my view cash flow is king and so there is no doubt that there will be some cash flow impact in the coming months for loads of people. That said my cash flow can decline and I can still afford to buy cards. Some won't be able to. How much they matter to the card prices is debatable. I don't know the answer.

The economy was in great shape heading into this. I think it all comes down to how long it is halted. If it is two months for most of it the stimulus package and debt extension efforts will help. If it is four months or more we will be in trouble for a while. The decline in interest rates and energy is huge stimulus and obviously the lack of work is not.

There was a hedge fund manager that was on CNBC this week twice who is a billionaire and in his late 40's and started at 25. He thinks the market hits new highs by the end of the year. Is it probable? No. Is it possible? Yes. He is looking at the same situation we are.

I personally think this is a very hard one to predict because under no circumstances did I think in 2009 it would be a v shaped recovery. I remember arguing with an old timer in the office who was a portfolio manager and was insistent we were in trouble for a long time. I couldn't have been more wrong as the market came screaming back and while I had been very bearish on the way down I didn't get it right on the way back up. With a massive amount of fiscal stimulus it is very possible that this will assist in keeping us from going as deep as one might think and certainly could assist in us coming back from this.

My situation is different than most because I own such a large concentration of the same cards and a large percentage of the population totals. A few weeks ago an Andre The Giant 1982 PSA 8 sold for $1,358. There are 18 in the pop report and I have 6 of them. I know I could never sell them all at the same time and not impact prices. A PSA 7 sold for $620. I have 7 of those. The same holds true there. That said the totals of these cards are low enough where they don't come for sale frequently and so if someone wants one they have to go after it. Do some of the market participants get knocked out of the market for this card? Possibly but it is not 100%.

I truly believe that a ton of money has flowed into cards because they are a hard asset. You still own it regardless of the value. Someone who bought Enron watched their piece of paper go to zero. An Andre will always be worth something. Perhaps more. Perhaps less but never zero.

There is a trimmed raw Kobe Bryant card with a current bid of $145,600 right now on Ebay. Why? Because there are people out there that want this stuff and that isn't going to change. The buying power might change and that is the the question we can't answer. If it lasts a few months it is a non event. If it lasts years than yes the economy will catch up to cards.

It remains to be seen how this plays out and I remain optimistic we will get through this. I hope I am right. It has never paid to bet against the American economy for long.

[MULLINS5]

Another bad example - there are so few of the Kobe Green Metal cards. Those cards are extremely condition sensitive and could actually benefit a little trim around the edges without negatively impacting value.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Another bad example - there are so few of the Kobe Green Metal cards. Those cards are extremely condition sensitive and could actually benefit a little trim around the edges without negatively impacting value.

The point is there is still money out there that can support a card selling for nearly 150k from 1997. Most will pay more for a slabbed card and so the fact that it is raw doesn't help its cause. Yes there are 10 so you take what you can get but that doesn't mean those searching wouldn't pay more for a higher numerical grade.

Not everyone is going to be in dire straits. If you are a waiter perhaps but they don't drive the card market.

Here we have a Johnson/Bird rookie.

Sold for $5,822 in January

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Topps-...8AAOSwyMVeGiRK

A PWCC copy with a premium rating $8,100 in February

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Topps-...UAAOSwFZNeQEyg

A standard copy like the first I posted sells for $7,565 tonight

https://www.ebay.com/itm/14355376147...torefresh=true


Why not less than the one in January when the market was at all time highs? Why not drastically less?

[Republicaninmass]

"Alleged" Doctored altered cards run up by fake buyers groups and shill bids. Wait until next month when the same cards are listed



If you value your portfolio by PWCC sales prices, you will be in for a rude awakening come sale time. Yes, I refuse to even add any of their cards to my watch list to "increase eyeballs". I'll view real time sales from everyone else thank you.

They are the Parateum of cards with False earnings in my book.

[MULLINS5]

The first card has a noticeable print defect on the bottom right corner which could be why it sold for less than the other two.

I follow 79/80 OPC Hockey. There are a TON of Gretzkys being unloaded at the moment. That card, many years ago, used to sell for about $100 per PSA grade up to PSA 7. Now it's about three times that and doesn't look like it's going down. The big Gretzky card (PSA 9) grade is not trustworthy IMO because there is a larger opportunity to artificially inflate the price and create a facade for value - these type of cards shouldn't be considered when studying the card market as a whole.

[Dpeck100]

When people refer to the stock market they discuss the most important companies in the world and base their judgment on how they are performing.

These actively traded cards are a better example because they are liquid. In the cards I follow a Randy Orton PSA 10 rookie sold for $175 today. A very strong price. Very doubtful that card sells for that in auction. It’s a lot easier to sell an Andre than that card and if people end up really needing money the good stuff gets sold because it’s the easiest to move.

[seanofjapan]

Focusing on PWCC only tells you about current demand, it doesn't tell you anything about where demand or supply are going to be at in a couple months when the economic effects of this really start to be felt.

The writing on the wall is clear: lots of people are going to be needing money in the next few months just to get by. Either they'll have lost a job, had their hours cut, or seen their retirement savings decimated by the stock market crash. Government action might cushion the fallout a bit but noway is it going to solve any of it. So anyone with a collection who falls into one of those categories is likely to be making some tough choices in the coming weeks about what they need to get rid of in order to get some money.

And the problem is that all of these people will be making that decision at about the same time, which means you'll likely see a huge spike in stuff for sale this summer. They haven't flooded the market yet because this crisis has been sprung upon us so suddenly and most people who have decent collections probably have some savings to tide them over a bit. But once they reach that point, supply is going to go through the roof at exactly the same time demand craters because the people who are usually buyers have become sellers.

Its the perfect recipe for the market to tank completely. If PWCC prices are still high today, then the smart person would be selling everything they have like mad right now to take advantage of that because it won't last.

[oldjudge]

Here I was worrying about the stock market and the Coronavirus and I completely missed the fact that the Randy Orton PSA10s were doing well. That changes everything.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Here I was worrying about the stock market and the Coronavirus and I completely missed the fact that the Randy Orton PSA10s were doing well. That changes everything.

Agreed, huge if true.

[Exhibitman]

WTF is a "Randy Orton"??? Sounds like a horny cockney elephant.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

WTF is a "Randy Orton"??? Sounds like a horny cockney elephant.

One of the best wrestlers of the last 20 years.

His father is Bob Orton Jr. and his father is Bob Orton Sr. A great wrestling family.

He is in the 2002 WWE Fleer Royal Rumble with other notable cards of John Cena, Brock Lesnar, and Dave Bautista. They are black bordered and hard to get high grades on.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

WTF is a "Randy Orton"??? Sounds like a horny cockney elephant.

Yes, “Orton ears a Ooo”. I read it as a tyke.

[Tyruscobb]

Wall Street may say one thing, but Main Street folks know differently - despite what Joe Blow PSA 10 sold for last night. Those that sell equities or cards are going to beat the everything is fine drum. They have an invested interest. I’m no chicken little, but know enough that this crisis could cause a significant recession. Make smart decisions during this time, folks. Godspeed.

[Shoeless Moe]

I know some don't like my WWII analogy to all of the current mess.

BUT.......

We lost over 405,000 Americans in WWII, and I'd say the vast majority were 18-30 years old young men. To me that's a lot sadder, then losing an 80 or 90 year old who have had quite a run.

We've lost 4 or 500 old people here. A handful of non-old. Even if we lose 20K when all is said and done, it's not close to 400K. And we came back strong after WWII, losing 400K. America needs to lose the we have to save every one mentality. This is now a new world. Some will die. We are not saving everyone. And destroying lives and the economy will be far worse then 500 old people dying sorry. It's like the Titanic folks, not everyone is getting in a lifeboat.

Yes its a mess, but it's not a mass killer. Less then 1% who get it will die. The FEAR promoted by the media, has contributed to beating the sh-t out of the economy and caused mass panic. It'd be nice if they used their platform to heal and get everyone back to work fairly soon. Shut NY for a month, maybe CA too (although that Gov. is an exagerrator - he just wants to look like the hero when the numbers are way low, you do the opposite and its political suicide, I get it), but the rest need to get back in a week or 2.

We need to get tough, isolate the old only, the rest of America get our asses back to work. Yes we are going to lose some people, sucks, sucks bad, but pretty soon enough is enough and we fight through it.

We defeated the British, the Japs, the Nazis, the Terrorists, we are going to get taken by a Chinese Virus?

NO we are not.

[brianp-beme]

Let's just hope (and do what we can to work toward) keeping this from getting out of control. If the low end of some predictions come true and 30% of the US population contract the virus, that is about 100 million US citizens out of 330 million. 1% of that amount is 1 million.

That's not just math, that's people we are talking about. And it is not just the old that are going to be dragged underground.

We have the right to be concerned, even if this (hopefully) only ends up killing 20,000 of us in the US.

Brian

[Shoeless Moe]

It ain't going from 40,000 to 30 million. Another FEAR monger giving those numbers. SENSATIONALISM Sells.

And yes be concerned, but not afraid to live your life. Now everyone is afraid.

and again see this article from 2018:

https://www.statnews.com/2018/09/26/...deaths-winter/

Why were there no charts showing how many were dying each week in each state. Could you imagine if the media showed that, 80,000 deaths vs 500 now. Imagine what that panic would have been. Wasn't an election year though, and must have been better stories. No one seemed to care about those 80,000 Americans.

Yes, this will be a bad week, it will get better.....STAY POSITIVE!!! (and don't watch too much CNN & MSNBC, so negative, and Fox while somewhat better, has their issues as well, can we get one station that just gives us the news without an agenda).

[Johnny630]

Who else thinks shilling Will be at all time new levels over the next few months ?

[Hankphenom]

The debate about how much to change the country's economic behavior in response to this virus is eminently worthy of discussion, but not here. And I'll continue to watch CNN and MSNBC to get the news, thanks, others can watch what they want.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

It ain't going from 40,000 to 30 million. Another FEAR monger giving those numbers. SENSATIONALISM Sells.

And yes be concerned, but not afraid to live your life. Now everyone is afraid.

and again see this article from 2018:

https://www.statnews.com/2018/09/26/...deaths-winter/

Why were there no charts showing how many were dying each week in each state. Could you imagine if the media showed that, 80,000 deaths vs 500 now. Imagine what that panic would have been. Wasn't an election year though, and must have been better stories. No one seemed to care about those 80,000 Americans.

Yes, this will be a bad week, it will get better.....STAY POSITIVE!!! (and don't watch too much CNN & MSNBC, so negative, and Fox while somewhat better, has their issues as well, can we get one station that just gives us the news without an agenda).

40,000 is a meaningless number when very few people are being tested. The true number is much, much larger than that. Being optimistic is good, being blind to reality is not.

[Touch'EmAll]

Stock market affecting cards? I was watching a nicely centered 1955 Topps Mays PSA 7. Just went for $1,900.00 - Wow ! My bid not even close on this one. Went for over double SMR and way above any recent sales for that card.

[seanofjapan]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Stock market affecting cards? I was watching a nicely centered 1955 Topps Mays PSA 7. Just went for $1,900.00 - Wow ! My bid not even close on this one. Went for over double SMR and way above any recent sales for that card.

I imagine the same card will be going for $500 in June.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Dow will go up today 3/24/2020

i guess sell you cards today...

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

One of the best wrestlers of the last 20 years.

His father is Bob Orton Jr. and his father is Bob Orton Sr. A great wrestling family.

He is in the 2002 WWE Fleer Royal Rumble with other notable cards of John Cena, Brock Lesnar, and Dave Bautista. They are black bordered and hard to get high grades on.

Since wrestling is fixed, how do you define "best wrestlers of the last 20 years?"

When I was a kid in Minnesota, Verne Gagne was considered the top wrestler. Every match ran the same script - he started off hot, then it looked like he would lose, but suddenly he came back to life and won.

Then there was Mad Dog Vachon, Larry Hennig, The Crusher, and others, who could never beat Verne, but who would win sometimes if wrestling against each other.

And then, the sad story of Kenny Jay, who was the Terry Felton of wrestling. Rumor had it that he actually won once, but I have my doubts.

Point is, when it's scripted and the winners are decided beforehand (as was confirmed for me by a former pro wrestler, Wolf Terminator) how do you define greatness? Maybe if they'd been honest matches, Kenny Jay may have beaten Verne a few times.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Since wrestling is fixed, how do you define "best wrestlers of the last 20 years?"

When I was a kid in Minnesota, Verne Gagne was considered the top wrestler. Every match ran the same script - he started off hot, then it looked like he would lose, but suddenly he came back to life and won.

Then there was Mad Dog Vachon, Larry Hennig, The Crusher, and others, who could never beat Verne, but who would win sometimes if wrestling against each other.

And then, the sad story of Kenny Jay, who was the Terry Felton of wrestling. Rumor had it that he actually won once, but I have my doubts.

Point is, when it's scripted and the winners are decided beforehand (as was confirmed for me by a former pro wrestler, Wolf Terminator) how do you define greatness? Maybe if they'd been honest matches, Kenny Jay may have beaten Verne a few times.

This is an interesting question. Vern Gagne ran a wrestling training school during the time you mention and three long term top talents came out of there that I will use to answer this question. All three of these men trained at the same time and have much different talents that they used to build their careers. My wife has taken an interest in the balet and in many ways you can compare professional wrestling to it. You need athleticism, stamina, looks, acting skills, and charisma.

Ric Flair was a big guy when he entered Gagne's training program and because of the rigorous training schedule slimmed down to a more athletic build of around 240. He was still a very big guy but certainly not the size of many of the giant's of wrestling. Flair went on to have a lengthy career and arguably one of the best. Why? He was tremendous in the ring. One of his best skills was selling the other performers offense and making the fans believe he was going to lose only to come back and some how pull off the victory. He had tremendous charisma and was one of the best talkers ever on the microphone. His promos are legendary and are still recited to this day. He won the world title 16 times and yes he was chosen to win but he was chosen to win because he was reliable and he was a draw and his work rate was second to none. He could wrestle a legit six minutes in the ring and for anyone who does cardio it is mind boggling how tremendous of shape you have to be in to do that.

Next we have the Iron Sheik. He was a legit wrestler from Iran who competed at top levels and was known as a shooter. A shooter is a legit wrestler/fighter who if they decide they do not want to go with the story line they can have their way with the other wrestler. For most of his career he was a bad guy and his role was to incite the fans and in many cases make the good guys look better and sell tickets. By being billed from his home land of Iran he generated heat and was very believable in the ring. As legend has it Vern Gagne offered him 100k in 1984 when he faced Hulk Hogan in Vince Mcmahon's WWF for their heavyweight title to break Hogan's leg and not go along with the predetermined finish that would see Hogan take the title. Not all wrestlers are trained like this and in a real life street fight while Hogan is dramatically larger he would be no match at the time for the likes of the Iron Sheik.

Finally we have Ken Patera. A legit strong man and Olympic competitor who for a time was the worlds strongest man. He had a look that you just simply can't recreate. I have had the good fortune to get to work with him a few times in recent years at some wrestling conventions and he has the largest forearms even in his 70's I have ever seen on a human. In many ways wrestling was like the circus. They had something for everyone. Ken was a sight to be seen and was so strong that even though wrestling was thought to be scripted it was believable that he could over power anyone he wanted. In the late 70's he took on a more slimmed down body builder look and was easily one of the best bad guys in wrestling. He was never the best in ring performer but he was excellent at getting the crowd riled up and with his look and over all athleticism he helped create the appearance of a more legitimate contest.

Wrestling was thought to be a fixed sport but it wasn't confirmed until Vince McMahon decided to no longer employ the state athletic commission and declare it was indeed a predetermined sport. Randy Orton has wrestled during this time and he has had a tremendous career. Yes the WWE has to put him in the spots he is in but the only way to get those spots and to maintain those spots is to stay healthy and put on a great performance. He is in tremendous condition, has a great look, is excellent on the microphone, can wrestle as a face or heal and is naturally a better heal, and is a great in ring performer. For anyone who has watched wrestling for a long time there are some performers that can make the moves look tight and as real as possible and there are others where it is painfully obvious they are not hurting their foe. For this he is easily one of the best talents in the past twenty years and will be thought of longer term as one of the best from his era.

[Goudey77]

My son and I attend at least 4 WWE events a year. I grew up watching it. My kid watches it. The athleticism rivals any other "professional" sport.

What makes a wrestling talent great is usually how they connect with the audience on the microphone. Then telling the in ring story via their performance on the mat.

It's similar to what makes a movie start great. Same qualities.

Look at the "Rock" Dwayne Johnson. He is a wrestling "great".

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

The debate about how much to change the country's economic behavior in response to this virus is eminently worthy of discussion, but not here. And I'll continue to watch CNN and MSNBC to get the news, thanks, others can watch what they want.

Didn't say don't watch those 2, said don't watch "too much" of those 2. I actually watch all 3, including Fox. I don't watch just one or exclude one like you. I watch all 3, I find that is best if you want to get a more accurate whole picture. You watch too much of any one of the 3 and they'll brainwash ya.

Dow bounced back big. NICE!!!! Of course could lose all that by the end of the week, who knows, let's hope not. Most likely will stay a roller coaster for a long while.

But today was nice, let's enjoy that in these bleak times!!!!

Like Cuomo said "This is war".

And like Trump says ya can't shut it down forever. Jobs and lives are at stake either way. The President has a tough job. He may be an ass at times, but he is our President and doing the best he can.

Every American needs to do something. You can't stay inside and shield yourself from the world for 6 months, a year, however long. Everyone does that WE fail.

The healthy MUST return to work soon, real soon. You are fighting for your 401K, you are fighting for your retirement, your kids college funds, you are fighting for the small businesses and for the workers who need jobs and have families, so you are fighting for the children of America. So take a little risk and get in the game baby!

And any conversation that involves the likes of Kenny J, Ken Patera, and Cowboy Bob Orton (prefer pops to the boy), love it!!!!

Remember when Patera and Saito wanted some McDonalds one night in Milwaukee, great story! Look it up.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

40,000 is a meaningless number when very few people are being tested. The true number is much, much larger than that. Being optimistic is good, being blind to reality is not.

Well if the true number is "much much" larger then that, which I'd agree with you, then the death rate is much much lower then they are showing. So that actually is good news.

[oldjudge]

I truly hope that the US death rate sets a new low. However, you have to remember that there is a time period between catching the disease, showing symptoms, and recovering or not. A year from now we will know what the true fatality rate was. All the 40,000 number showed was that very few people were being tested. Governor Cuomo said that N.Y. State cases will double every three days. NY is a hot spot. How many of those kids who packed onto beaches in Florida for spring break came from the N.Y. area? Now cases in Florida are growing by 20% a day. It goes on like this. Hopefully, self isolation and increased testing slows the spread down, but that will only work if people follow directions.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Well if the true number is "much much" larger then that, which I'd agree with you, then the death rate is much much lower then they are showing. So that actually is good news.

hard to get the death rate when there is not a correct denominator. Let's hope testing improves so that we know what we are truly dealing with.

[Dpeck100]

Shoeless Moe

You don't ask Patera about that situation! He has no filter and can get upset quick and that is something that is off limits!

Anyone who thinks we can shut the economy down for months is delusional. There isn't enough money in the world to keep the economy afloat.

It will be early April to mid April is my bet.

There is a loser on the CU boards that is saying PSA will be shut down until September. If that happens they run the risk of going under. We can't destroy the entire economy globally and send ourselves into a global depression. Thankfully our president realizes this.

If we get people back to work soon there is a very real chance a V shaped recovery can happen. I stopped at 7-11 to get some gas, a Sierra Nevada 16oz and a bag of wasabi almonds and I had to use my calculator to determine how much gas to buy. It was down over $8 a tank. This is real stimulus for joe six pack.

This was a serious bounce in the market today and the vix hit levels that every single time in history it has you have made money 12 months out on the market. The level of negativity is incredible and I am a contrarian by nature and this to me is a great sign. The number of arm chair economists is off the charts and that is a good sign. Time will tell.

[MULLINS5]

Let's hope PSA shuts down for good.

They're a fraudulent company that sold services they did not deliver on.

Will it happen? Most likely not.