10 best postwar players who haven't made the Hall

[Peter_Spaeth]

We've done this but not for a while and always fun. Must be eligible, and let's not include players who pretty obviously were rejected for PED use or cheating or other scandal. This list is not meant to be in order except in my mind I'm going in chron order by rookie year.

So with that windup:

Ken Boyer
Tommy John
Dick Allen
Luis Tiant
Thurman Munson
Dwight Evans
Keith Hernandez
Don Mattingly
Curt Schilling
Todd Helton

Who am I forgetting, or who would you rate higher?

[commishbob]

Steve Garvey, Al Oliver, Lou Whitaker, and Andres Galarraga come to my mind. Not saying they belong but I think they have numbers that compare pretty favorably with some guys who are enshrined. Garvey's stat geek numbers surprised me...his WAR is about 36, but postseason numbers are pretty impressive.

And I'll always stand up for my guy, Billy Pierce.

[seanofjapan]

Dave Parker, Vida Blue and Kenny Lofton?

Pretty strong case for Harold Baines and Jack Morris to be on that list too, but I digress...

[G1911]

I don't think there are 10 that I would put in, generally the Hall has done well in this era. I am excising Helton, because he has 5 more writers ballots he is eligible on and he got 72% last time, the odds are 99% he is elected before he hits a veterans committee ballot, so it doesn't feel like he is being forgotten or underrated. Billy Wagner is at 68% and has 2 more ballots, he is also 90%+ likely to be elected and so excised here.

In order:


1. Curt Schilling - he is in a new class here. The writers have generally done a good job historically, with the egregious choices coming from corrupt veterans committee's. They elected Ted Williams, who they hated, year 1 with 93.4% of the vote when almost nobody hit 90%. But Schilling is out and Ortiz is in on pure corruption and politics from the press. If Schilling was a nice dude, he would be in. If he was an obnoxious prick but made a joke about hanging the deplorables the media hates instead, he would be in. A good argument can be made that the HOF should not include pitchers of Schilling's caliber, but that is not the line the HOF has actually drawn with its choices. 80 WAR is well above the mark, to pick just one stat. There's no honest argument that Schilling does not meet the general statistical standards.

2. Jeff Kent - One of the top 6 or 7 2B offensively. Suffers from a weird career trajectory and being overshadowed by Bonds during his peak. Also kind of a prick. I have a hard time seeing how he is not a HOF 2B. I would rate him over a lot of the 2B elected, not just the absolute worst.

3. Rich Allen - Longevity is his problem, no one thinks his peak is not worthy. His rate states are truly great, but his counting is weak and he was a team problem.

4. Tommy John - pretty hard to excise him when Kaat, Sutton, Hunter, etc. are in. Pretty much all the pitchers just like him are in.

5. Vida Blue & Luis Tiant - WAR likes Tiant a lot more but they are almost the same stat line.

6. Omar Vizquel - Whether or not he is guilty of the charges won't matter, he was trending to make it shortly before they appeared. Baseball and the media no longer care about actual guilt and so it's irrelevant, he will never get in either way. I probably wouldn't vote for him, but I don't think defense only is generally worthy of the hall. The presence of Maranville and Smith in the HOF suggests the general HOF standard incorporates Vizquel. If it was purely my opinion, I would probably not include him in the top 10 but he rates higher when compared to the actual hall standard than he does where I would put him.

7. Will Clark - Look at the stats and it sounds less absurd. Borderline.

8. Ken Boyer - Right on the borderline, probably the best 3B not in but also not unfairly ignored.

9. Lou Whitaker - He's almost certain to go in on an eras committee ballot. WAR likes him a lot more than I think his actual production is worth.

10. Kenny Lofton - Lot of counting stats, fast, good glove, WAR likes him. 107 OPS+ is where I dock him and others don't; his bat was just a little over league average and that's hard to justify for a HOFer. Rickey was at 127, Raines at 123. That he fell off the ballot immediately is a travesty, but I'm not sure he should actually be elected. Man deserved an honest appraisal, as did Carlos Delgado.

[cgjackson222]

I agree with many of the players already mentioned, and would add Graig Nettles, Bobby Grich (really close to Lou Whitaker at 2B), Rick Reuschel (had great counting stats and some very dominant years such as 1977), David Cone, Jim Edmonds, and Reggie Smith.

My top at each position:

P: Tiant/Schilling
C: Munson
1B: Helton/Hernandez/Allen
2B: Whitaker/Kent/Grich
SS: Campaneris/Vizquel
3B: Boyer/Nettles
OF: Lofton/Edmonds/Evans
RP: Billy Wagner

[frankhardy]

Jim Edmonds should be in. I think it is a shame he is not. Very good power, and he is one of the top 5 best defensive centerfielders to ever live I think.

[packs]

Johan Santana. Yes, short career but so what? He won 2 Cy Youngs, a pitching Triple Crown, and 3 ERA titles. Short career aside that's a HOFer's resume.

[jsfriedm]

I actually don't think Kent is one of 6 or 7 best offensive second basemen. Here's 7 - who are you putting him ahead of?

Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Charlie Gehringer
Jackie Robinson
Joe Morgan
Roberto Alomar (offensive WAR 70.8 to 60.1 for Kent)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

I actually don't think Kent is one of 6 or 7 best offensive second basemen. Here's 7 - who are you putting him ahead of?

Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Charlie Gehringer
Jackie Robinson
Joe Morgan
Roberto Alomar (offensive WAR 70.8 to 60.1 for Kent)

Rod Carew as well, no?

[jsfriedm]

Forgot him, but yes. I also think there are others that might be debatable: Biggio, Sandberg, possibly even Cano (yes, PEDS...)

[packs]

Kent is never going to get in. He was pretty bad actually until he got to the Giants. His best season with the Mets came with a 111 OPS and he didn't leave the Mets until he was 28 years old, so it's not like he was just settling in.

I don't think people are wrong to speculate about his time on the Giants, when he was suddenly good at 30 years old.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

I actually don't think Kent is one of 6 or 7 best offensive second basemen. Here's 7 - who are you putting him ahead of?

Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Charlie Gehringer
Jackie Robinson
Joe Morgan
Roberto Alomar (offensive WAR 70.8 to 60.1 for Kent)

Cano and Grich may be ahead of Kent as well.

OPS+ for 2nd Basemen:
1) Rogers Hornsby 175
2) Lajoie 150
3) Eddie Collins 142
4) Jackie Robinson 133
5) Joe Morgan 132
6) Gehringer/Bobby Grich 125
8) Robinson Cano 124
9) Jeff Kent 123
10 Joe Gordon 120
11) Lou Whitaker and Chace Utley 117
13) Roberto Alomar 116
14) Ryne Sandberg 114
15) Dustin Pedroia 113
16) Biggio 112

I think Carew played more games at 1B than 2B so it is hard to count him.

[clydepepper]

I agree with several of those players already mentioned, but I will bring up a real jerk, but an outstanding hitter that nobody has mentioned:


Albert Belle.

Even though he was caught with a corked bat, I don't think he was an habitual cheater- like the other big stat guys who should always be on the outside, looking in.

.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

I actually don't think Kent is one of 6 or 7 best offensive second basemen. Here's 7 - who are you putting him ahead of?

Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Charlie Gehringer
Jackie Robinson
Joe Morgan
Roberto Alomar (offensive WAR 70.8 to 60.1 for Kent)

Hornsby
Collins
Lajoie
Gehringer
Morgan

Jackie is close and would probably pass if he’d had a couple more years. I note we don’t want to use oWar for him.

Rod Carew played more games at 1B than 2B. If we count him as a 2B and credit his half plus career at first as playing 2B, I would put him ahead to, but that criteria doesn’t make much sense.

Cano, Alomar, Biggio are close. Less impressive peaks and more counting seasons. I definitely deduct a bit from Cano for clearly cheating to reach his stats.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

Hornsby
Collins
Lajoie
Gehringer
Morgan

Jackie is close and would probably pass if he’d had a couple more years. I note we don’t want to use oWar for him.

Rod Carew played more games at 1B than 2B. If we count him as a 2B and credit his half plus career at first as playing 2B, I would put him ahead to, but that criteria doesn’t make much sense.

Cano, Alomar, Biggio are close. Less impressive peaks and more counting seasons. I definitely deduct a bit from Cano for clearly cheating to reach his stats.

Bobby Grich had a higher OPS+ and oWAR than Kent, and was a much better fielder.

[Baseballcrazy62]

Bill Freehan: 11x All-Star/World Series Champ/ 5x Gold Glove winner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Baseballcrazy62

Bill Freehan: 11x All-Star/World Series Champ/ 5x Gold Glove winner.

I've been of two minds on Freehan and have yet to add him to my RC collection unlike nearly everyone discussed here although I still don't have Blue. On the one hand, one could point to the above and say well yeah he's deserving. On the other hand, one could say he was just the best AL catcher in a weak period for catchers. But you've convinced me.

[JollyElm]

Jesus Christ with the ridiculous 'advanced' stats!!!! We all saw Jeff Kent play every day. If the theoretical WAR stat is such an important barometer, why didn't any of the other second baseman playing when he did put up the numbers Kent did??? You would rather have those guys at second?? Jeff Kent is the all-time HR and RBI leader for second basemen. ALL TIME!!!!!! The goal in a baseball game is to score runs, and no one from the second base position did it better than him. He was a monster on offense.

1,518 RBIs and 377 long balls from a second baseman?? That doesn't make him Cooperstown worthy???? He also hit the 100 RBI mark eight different times, was an All Star 5 times and won an MVP Award (and would've probably had more if his juicing a-hole of a teammate didn't keep stealing them). And a career .290 average ain't too shabby.

What in high heck else do you want from your second base position??????

This is just beyond frustrating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cgjackson222]

I think there is a strong HOF case for Kent. But I don't know if he is the 6th or 7th best 2nd baseman of all time. There are a bunch of great 2nd basemen. He wasn't very good for the first 7 or the last 4 years of his career.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

He wasn't very good for the first 7 or the last 4 years of his career.

And there's the problem with Kent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me, Kent is one of those guys you wouldn't protest if he got in, but you don't really care if he's left out.

[cgjackson222]

Every thread needs a (pile of) cards

[Peter_Spaeth]

iindeed

[cgjackson222]

I think we've just about covered them.

[seanofjapan]

Dale Murphy should be in this conversation too. One of the best players of the 1980s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

Dale Murphy should be in this conversation too. One of the best players of the 1980s.

Fair enough. As long as nobody mentions Andruw Jones LOL.

[Exhibitman]

Bill Madlock. Four NL batting titles and 2000+ hits, playing 2nd and 3rd base. Deserved better than one and done on the ballot.