Marvin Miller cards?

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

While I agree with most things you write on the forum, with all due respect, I think you're wrong on this one Tom... for starters, can you name ONE player who chose another career because baseball didn't pay enough? ONE?

Fifty years ago in 1967, the year before Marvin Miller became executive director of the Major League Baseball Players Assn. the AVERAGE salary in baseball was $19,000.00 - which equates to roughly $139,428.81 in 2017 dollars - while the MINIMUM salary was $6000.00 - which equates to roughly $44,030.15 in 2017 dollars. Baseball salaries in the past 50 years have increased 20,000%... but that's not ridiculous?

So are we really to assume that pre-Miller players would sooner take a year-round job not playing the sport they love because almost $50,000 wasn't enough to live on a year? And that was just the MINIMUM, not the AVERAGE. I'm sorry, but pro athletes have ALWAYS been paid well and have made more than the average worker/citizen, while it's true it's only within the modern era that we see considerably inflated sums.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/mlb/la...329-story.html

https://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

Bill Lange? There are others certainly. That one off the top of my head.

[packs]

I highly doubt anyone plays baseball because of the money you can make. You're either a baseball player or you aren't. People play professional lacrosse because that's what they are, lacrosse players. You can't convince me your average lacrosse player isn't playing any other sport because of money when the guy's already not making any. He just loves lacrosse.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Bill Lange? There are others certainly. That one off the top of my head.

According to the SABR website....

"Then at the close of the 1899 season, Lange abandoned it all, quitting the game in order to take a bride whose well-heeled father would not countenance a baseball player for a son-in-law. Sadly, the marriage did not last, but Lange’s departure from the diamond did. He never returned to uniform, having played his final game at the age of 28."

Lange later went on to numerous baseball jobs after hanging up his cleats as a player including spring-training outfield instructor for the Chicago White Sox and European talent scout for Ban Johnson and John McGraw. This hardly sounds like a man disgruntled from the sport by his income.

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/6a073842

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Bill Lange? There are others certainly. That one off the top of my head.

Mike Donlin took three entire years off from playing for the Giants at the height of his career (1907, 1909, 1910) to perform in vaudeville and on Broadway with his wife Mabel Hite, because it paid more than baseball.

[packs]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Mike Donlin took three entire years off from playing for the Giants at the height of his career (1907, 1909, 1910) to perform in vaudeville and on Broadway with his wife Mabel Hite, because it paid more than baseball.

Donlin was always known to be a huge Broadway fan. Can you point to anything that supports it was purely for financial reasons? After his wife died he went right back to playing baseball.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by packs

Donlin was always known to be a huge Broadway fan. Can you point to anything that supports it was purely for financial reasons? After his wife died he went right back to playing baseball.

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/3b51e847

"In the spring of 1907 he demanded the same $3,300 he had been paid in 1906, plus a $600 bonus if he stayed sober all year. Owner John Brush declined. Mike held out and eventually went on the vaudeville circuit with his wife, missing the entire season. With characteristic confidence, he proclaimed: "I can act. I'll break the hearts of all the gals in the country." Critics generally disagreed. One said that Donlin "never was the actor he thought he was or wanted to be.""

"On October 26, 1908, Hite and Donlin's one-act play, Stealing Home, opened at the Hammerstein Theater in New York. Though the play was acclaimed, reviews for the ballplayer-turned-actor were mixed. Variety raved: "Mike Donlin as a polite comedian is quite the most delightful vaudeville surprise you ever enjoyed." But another critic wrote, "Hite was so good she could carry him." For the next three winters the pair performed Stealing Home in front of sold-out houses from Boston to San Francisco. Donlin vowed never to return to baseball because he was making more money in show business."

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Mike Donlin took three entire years off from playing for the Giants at the height of his career (1907, 1909, 1910) to perform in vaudeville and on Broadway with his wife Mabel Hite, because it paid more than baseball.

Considering the argument is that an overwhelming plethora of players have left baseball or pursued other careers due to a lack of compensation...

yet Turkey and Lange - players from a past century - are the only examples?

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Considering the argument is that an overwhelming plethora of players have left baseball or pursued other careers due to a lack of compensation...

yet Turkey and Lange - players from a past century - are the only examples?

Who said anything about an "overwhelming plethora"?

And I don't think anybody is arguing that lots of players who were already competing at the major league level have left the sport because they weren't paid enough. The argument (as I understand it) is that the more MLB salaries increase, the more they will attract talented athletes who might have otherwise chosen a different career than playing professional baseball. I'm not sure that I necessarily agree with that argument in this context either, because now there are several other very well-paying professional sports competing for many of the same athletes, whereas in the early 1900s there was basically just baseball and boxing (and hockey for Canadians, like George Gibson). Of course, there are plenty of other differences as well (such as the lack of black MLB players in the early 1900s), so it's hard to make comparisons.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Who said anything about an "overwhelming plethora"?

Tom.

"throughout the history of the game are examples of people leaving to get a real job" So with 150 years encompassing the "professional" game, a single player leaving the sport every couple years seems plausible I would surmise, as we're referencing "throughout the history" of the paid game. That would leave us at least 75 men that have said bye bye to the chosen sport they love.... all to take some menial, thankless "job" that pays more?? IN WHAT WORLD GOOD SIR?!?
Let's see how many you can find....

As you can tell... this is all light-hearted.

....but I think your argument only has merit over a century ago, but not by today's current context. In good fun, tell me the jobs that a pro baseball player would abandon the diamond for - an average player mind you - and what he would even be qualified to do making over the equivalent of $150,000.00 in pre-Miller 1967??

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Who said anything about an "overwhelming plethora"?

And I don't think anybody is arguing that lots of players who were already competing at the major league level have left the sport because they weren't paid enough. The argument (as I understand it) is that the more MLB salaries increase, the more they will attract talented athletes who might have otherwise chosen a different career than playing professional baseball. I'm not sure that I necessarily agree with that argument in this context either, because now there are several other very well-paying professional sports competing for many of the same athletes, whereas in the early 1900s there was basically just baseball and boxing (and hockey for Canadians, like George Gibson). Of course, there are plenty of other differences as well (such as the lack of black MLB players in the early 1900s), so it's hard to make comparisons.

Problem with this argument is that those other sports can thank Marvin Miller as well. No sport would be as it is if not for him.

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

There are also stories of players through the 1920's playing out west or in the minors because the pay could be better than in the majors.

But that wasn't the crux of my point and I think you know that.

If this kind of money went to doctors it would likely funnel some people to it that end up being really really good. People who would have, maybe, chosen something like baseball had it paid more.

If you enjoy great baseball, thank Marvin Miller. He helped that happen.

Tom C

[Misunderestimated]

There are not any career-contemporary cards of Miller based on my research...I did a lot of it at some point when I thought his HOF election was imminent. Its not anymore unless they decide to ignore his wishes. I'm still kind of shocked that the players involved in the HOF did not "go to bat for him" more.

Based on the Hall of Fame's definitions he clearly belongs. Also you can compare his accomplishments (like them or not) with the other HOFers who were not on-field contributors (or GMs) and he tops almost all of them. I mean the various commissioners and owners for the most part.

If you don't like his contributions that's another thing. In the history of MLB he is a giant like Judge Landis and few others. Incidentally, I don't particularly like a lot of what Judge Landis did but he indisputably belongs in the HOF.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

There are also stories of players through the 1920's playing out west or in the minors because the pay could be better than in the majors.

But that wasn't the crux of my point and I think you know that.

If this kind of money went to doctors it would likely funnel some people to it that end up being really really good. People who would have, maybe, chosen something like baseball had it paid more.

If you enjoy great baseball, thank Marvin Miller. He helped that happen.

Tom C

No thanks. He ruined the game for me. 1 small market team has won a championship in the last 25 years. So, for the fans of that bottom third of teams, he is the devil along with his disciple Donald Fehr. I would like for the team I root for to have a chance, but I doubt I will see another championship in my lifetime. Baseball's popularity peaked in the 70s and has been declining ever since. In my opinion this is why. It is hard to invest much in the game when your team has no chance to win.

Donald Fehr is responsible for steroids. He blocked the testing. The problem with Miller/Fehr isn't that they fought for the players. The problem was their tactic of "burnt earth" to destroy the owners and in turn fans and the game. We were their enemies, don't expect me to support someone who has shown nothing but hatred for the fans. Baseball used to be the #1 sport. Now it is #3 behind NFL and NBA. Destroying the national pastime is not a reason for induction to the HOF. Bud Selig was the worst selection for the HoF. Marvin Miller would be even worse.

[byrone]

The fans are the most important part of baseball

And I don’t think Miller gave a rats ass about us fans

Labour Union Hall of Famer-yes

BB HOF- I’d skip checking out that plaque in Cooperstown

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Considering the argument is that an overwhelming plethora of players have left baseball or pursued other careers due to a lack of compensation...

yet Turkey and Lange - players from a past century - are the only examples?

Strawman argument. Never said a plethora.

Tom C