More bad news for Mastro

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

You won an item and sold an item? Didn't they net out the difference? When I consigned a large lot with REA, I also won 3-4 lots and Rob netted the amount out and then paid me the difference minus the interest-free advance he'd given me.

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Posted By: James Feagin

I think communication is the key here. If consignors want to know the status of their checks, give them an honest assessment of what's going on. No need to write 1,800 checks. From my experience in the auction industry, consignors are actually very understanding if you treat them with respect....Late payers are a way of life.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hey Bill, somehow you manage to handle the logistics of depositing those checks you receive one at a time. You're a smart guy, I suspect you could figure out a happy medium other than waiting 60 days to send out consignment checks.

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Posted By: Bill Panagopulos

Didn't mean to go nuts, but I'm cataloging NOW rather than home eating dinner...

Believe me, we mak eno money on float. And remember all of the material we have to BUY because of people we TRUSTED to pay for goods we shipped to them formerly great customers, who simply never pay and just take off. We eat it. It's not musch, but it makes that $1,100 disappear every sale, and more.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- I will often pay a consignor who consigns many lots twice- 50-60% very quickly and then the balance when all the funds are collected. Typically, 80-90% of the money comes in quickly. But there are a number of bidders in every auction who take 2-3 weeks before they even sit down to write a check, and I have to always chase them. It's just part of the process.

Also, many consignors ask for substantial cash advances, often a few months before the auction close. Those people already have half their money, so I tend to send out the balance of their consignment a little slower. Everyone wants to get paid immediately, and I try to find a balance between timely payments and good business sense.

If I have a lot of raw cards, say a large group of T206, I will not pay my consignor before the winner gets the lot. What if he calls me screaming I overgraded the cards, and I've already paid my consignor? Then I have a mess on my hands.

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Posted By: Bill Panagopulos

Jeff - Please read my posting again. We pay in TWO installments. The bulk, generally 90% of the sale, after 45 days, and we take another 15 days for the slowpokes to pay up, after which we issue a SECOND round of checks. So, if there are 100 consignors, we might issue 100 checks after 45 days, and maybe 20 checks after 60. OK?

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Posted By: Bill Panagopulos

If collectors paid me in 24 hours, Id be THRILLED to pay them in 48! But...it just doesn't happen, boys.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Since when has Mastro consignor policies been the standard bearer for the entire industry? The company I work for and most other auction houses I'm aware of send consignment checks in a very timely manner, most of the time in less than a week.

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Posted By: Bill Panagopulos

And please forgive the typos...

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Posted By: Bill Panagopulos

"Since when has Mastro consignor policies been the standard bearer for the entire industry? The company I work for and most other auction houses I'm aware of send consignment checks in a very timely manner, most of the time in less than a week."

Not possible. Maybe to a few customers, certainly not all. And having dealt with, literally over fifty auctions all over the world for many years, I'd like you to cite even one house that pays
"in less than a week".

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

In this economy, the only viable operating philosophy is



TRUST NO ONE

DOUBLE CHECK EVERYONE



The world changes dramatically in an hour or a day...45 days to pay consignors is unacceptable.
We predict that any auction house that takes longer than 21 days after the close of an auction
to pay will not survive.Of course, said auction house is only responsible for paying consignors for
terms for which they have been paid.

Bill's silly comment that "if you need money that fast go to E Bay" is inappropriate at best, and probably
explains why his business is dwarfed by Robert Edward Auctions.

Our guess is that Robert Edward, Heritage and Hunt will have a 85% of the memorabilia market
except autograph balls, bats and uniforms) and that some of the longer payers will be forced
into giving 50-75% down payments. Pre War high grade rare and valuable cards will be controlled
by no more than six auction houses.

The US Economy is certain to get far worse and remain weak for at least the next 30 months. Financial
institutions, insurance companies and collectibles firm are going to start falling like flies. Times are
far too difficult to trust any thinly capitalized auction house that will not guarantee payment within
two-three weeks after the close of their auction.


Bruce Dorskind

America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: James Feagin

Bill,

Yes--I was referring to individual consignors.

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Posted By: Bill Panagopulos

My dear Mr. Dorskind:

Thank you for your very professional advice. As a "management consultant", you should have done a little homework and checked us out:

We don't sell baseball (well, maybe 20 lots out of 1,800)
We don't sell cards
We don't sell uniforms
We don't sell bats

Frankly, we hate the stuff. And there are people out there who are better qualified to authenticate it.

We sell Lincoln, Washington, Hitler, and Mother Teresa. We sell Clara Barton and Josef Stalin. Ever heard of them?

I see your specialty is "recruitment communications, international recruitment, and business development for the financial services, marketing communications and publishing industries", which you've done since 2000. I've been selling autographs since 1993.

Stick to what you know.

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Posted By: Bill Panagopulos

And you are correct. Trust no one. Especially financial advisors!

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Posted By: David Atkatz

The Dorskind Group wishes they were as successful as you, Bill.

For one thing, you're not working out of your apartment.

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Posted By: Bill Panagopulos

I'm not in a position to comment, and I regret that I sounded way to harsh. Apologies.

The text of his posting sounded "shill"-like, but that's fine. I am a huge supporter of Rob Lifson and though we've never met, we've spoken several time on the phone regarding various forgers and bogus authenticators, and we, and many others, are actively working toward getting these crooks put away. Obviously we can't divulge details. Matter of fact, right after my posting, I got my usual stream of hate mail from the usual suspects.

We run an honest auction. I'm no Rob Lifson nor do I want to be. Bless him for his strength. But I have a sterling reputation and I work hard to maintain it. Maybe that's why I jumped ugly.

Again, sorry for my vitriole. It's late and I'm hungry.

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Posted By: joe

I agree with Bill and Barry, consignors are dreaming if they consign 10 items and expect multiple checks, 1 check after all payments are paid.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Even though I have lots of dogs, none of 'em are in this fight.

But I think I've learned a few things.


1. One reason auction folks group stuff into lots is so they have fewer lots to fool with, not because it will bring a higher price. Fewer lots mean fewer letters, shipments, payments... It reminds me of how real estate agents always say they're working for you, BS, they're working to get their commission, they want a sale.


2. A seller, if he wants money soon, might put just a few things in an auction at a time. The fewer lots, the sooner all winners are likely to have paid, the sooner the seller should get a check out. (See #4)

3. 45 days... that's BS. Where the auction guys are pointing out that they have the money for 45 days at most, not the whole year... go tell it to the cat. They hold proceeds from one auction 45 days or so, and then from the next auction 45 days or so, how many times do they do that in a year??? So it may be different money they're holding, but in a year they're holding money from multiple auctions a good part of the year, not just 45 days.

4. The last 2 guys I've sold stuff with was with Bill Goodwin and with Brockelman & Luckey. Neither outfit held the consignor's money, MY money, 45 days. Might be a reason to do business with those guys. And if these big great auction folks want business and are huffing and puffing about service, let 'em promise to cut a check in 15 days...

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Bill.....let me say that i deal with two major auction house and i get paid as soon as the check clears. Do you want to know why? Because i negotiated it into the contract. You see my friend if you want great items from certain consignors then you have to be flexible. If you look at some of the last auctions from Cowans,Garths,Bonham & Butterfields you will see a slew of unsold items. BELIEVE me when i tell you that the 45 to 60 day wait for consignors is old news. Only the most shrewd auction houses will make it in these tough economic times and they will have to change their policies or shut the doors. A friend of mine recently sent a Abraham Lincoln autographed book which had several other sought after auotgraphs in it to auction at Pa Onsite and it sold for 33,000, he was paid within 7 working days.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

As I count it, 45 days from December 8th is January 22nd. 45 days from December 18, 2008 was February 2nd. It is now February 15th and the consignors haven't seen their money yet. Mastro broke its own contractual term. All the rest is obfuscation. If Mastro was actually holding and accruing the proceeds for consignors, it could have covered the mistaken checks. Face reality, folks: Mastro uses your proceeds as a short term, interest-free loan.

I also have to take issue with the idea that it "has to be that way" in terms of paper payments both directions. In this day and age of instant payments and electronic transfers there is no reason why paper checks have to fly back and forth EXCEPT that it allows the auctioneer to control chargebacks and payment times with no recourse for the buyer and seller. Heritage already allows credit cards, paypal and other e-payments; you mean to tell me that Mastro couldn't do the same? And funds could be readily transferred by paypal or by wire from auctioneer to consignor with far less effort than creating and mailing paper checks.

And finally, the proof of the pudding is in the taste, so to speak: if the money has to be held to deal with all those nonperforming bidders, then why are the cards shipped out and being sold on Ebay long before the 45 day mark? How many of you have seen your cards on Ebay in dealer stores before you'd been paid by Mastro? Happened to me last time out. When I see dealers selling my stuff and making money on it I know my money is being used as a short term loan and not legitimately held.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Fred C

Barry,

What percentage of bidders pay for their winnings in the first 2, 3 and 4 weeks after an auction is closed? How many dead beat bidders do you run into every auction?

Thanks!

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

Heritage Auction does take credit card payment but there is a $10K limit. They also issue a zero percent seller's consignment fee certificate (paper money - not sure of baseball cards) for a future auction with each item won.

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Posted By: LetsGoBucs

In terms of holding the money, the auction house benefits on two sides. The one discussed about getting 1-2% in a market money account. The one not discussed is that by using the customer's money to pay expenses they are avoiding the 5-6% (or more) on their credit line - their consignors money costs them nothing, the credit line has costs.

Many companies aim to have cash to order process flows. Receive customer cash and pay your suppliers later. Dell is the best at it....they literally get paid, complete the final configuration of the computer, ship it to the customer, and 30 days after payment they pay many of their vendors. The vendors own all parts, paritially configured computers, etc until they are actually part of a finished product....then the payment clock starts ticking. If your a supplier to Dell you have to use credit lines (and incur those costs) to pay your labor, materials, overhead charges.

Many small businesses are having credit lines revoked, especially those that existed with some of the large banks currently having difficulties.

Honesty is the best policy, and it amazes me how many companies don't use that as their rule number one in terms of customer service.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Fred- the majority of bidders in every auction are really good, as they want to get their winnings as soon as possible. I would say that the heaviest days of getting checks are 5-7 days after the close of the auction. Part of that is my getting the invoices out quickly, which I usually do the day after it closes.

I would say by the two week point 90% of the payments are in. But I have never conducted an auction where everyone has paid by then. And then I begin the most arduous task of all, calling up the late payers and letting them know they are late and I need to pay consignors. The last two or three checks can easily arrive at the three week point or later.

I hadn't had a reneger in several years, but in the last auction I did, and he was a real jerk. The lot was all of $250 and he bugged me after he won it to send him scans of all twenty cards (which I refused), then stiffed me for the cash. He's now banned, and I found out shortly thereafter that he had recently been banned from another auction.

All that said, I have no more auctions planned and I'm not sure I will be doing any more. But you never know.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"I hadn't had a reneger in several years."

Wow, that is pretty amazing when you consider that we constantly seem to see cards and lots from other auction houses that curiously never get paid for at auction. Sometimes dozens of lots at auction seemingly end up back on the market just days after an auction ends. Barry, you must have amazing luck! I always assumed that the other auction houses simply guaranteed certain prices to consignors and when they are not reached the lots simply went back to the consignors to be sold again -- leaving a false impression that the recently completed 'sales' actually were completed. Now I think it's just that you have good luck with your customers compared to the other auction houses.

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Posted By: Matt

"I have no more auctions planned and I'm not sure I will be doing any more."

Say it ain't so!

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: barrysloate

I hear you Jeff...fact is I can go years with every lot being paid for, so when I hear about all these lots that set world records but were never paid for, I have to wrinkle an eyebrow too. That's what you get in an unregulated business.

Matt- the simple answer is it's not too hard to put an auction together, anyone can do it. There is only one challenging aspect to it: getting consignments. And at this stage all the good stuff goes to the big houses. That is something I have never been able to change. So it may be time to find another venue. But like I said, I'll never shut the door on doing another.

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Posted By: Fred C

Barry,

I'm not sure if this sounds right but, "say it aint so, Barry". Going through auction catalogs is a fun past time. I'll be looking forward to your next auction (that isn't on ebay). Hopefully it's sooner than later.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Fred. I always said my catalogs make excellent bookmarks for REA's or Mastro's much larger ones.

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Barry is a long time friend, and one the hobby's true gentleman.

We have consigned a number of mid-priced items through the years.
We were always paid within three weeks of the auction's close. Barry, as
everyone knows, is easy to work with and a true professional.

Whilst we believe he is correct in stating the most valuable cards and memorabilia
will inevitably find their way to the large financially solid houses REA, Hunt (for memorabilia- Negro League
and obscure card issues), and Heritage there is no better auction house for mid-grade
19th century and pre-WW II type cards then Barry Sloate

He always had a passion for quality rather than quantity, and he always takes
the time to review an item with a customer. Hopefully, he will come across
the opportunity to obtain a collection which will change his mind.

In the interim, we reiterate our prediction that there will be fewer auctions
and fewer auction houses in 2009...and that there will be a significant change
in the structure of payment between the auction houses and consignors. The
market is clearly one where the consignor has a great deal of leverage.

Good luck to Barry and here's to many great finds in the year ahead


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Bruce.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Were you two guys like lovers in a previous life? Talk about overkill. One thing i know to be fact is that people will buy cards at a auction house and then immediatly put them on e-bay or another auction to make money. I saw several of my cards sold while i waited for my consignor check.

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Posted By: leon

Your last comment towards Barry was uncalled for. He was only thanking Bruce for a compliment. I hope no one compliments me, or else, according to you, I might have to do unnatural acts with them?

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's okay Leon- Marshall's erratic behavior and inappropriate comments are well known by now...water off a duck's back.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Two thoughts:

Leon, comeon, not that there's anything wrong with that.

And Marshall, I was speaking tongue in cheek. Urban legend has it that certain auction house(s) falsely report as sold certain lots when in fact the lots do not change hands due to either a promised price not being reached or the consignor simply protecting his lots by 'buying' them. Sometimes consignors use their close friends to bid and protect their lots. Sometimes they even use their employees. For example, if I had a bunch of expensive lots in an auction and I was a neurotic, dishonest jerkoff I might have my associate bid on my lots in an effort to set an artificial reserve price just so that I wouldn't lose a few dollars that I would not otherwise miss.

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Posted By: leon

I don't even.....well, never mind.
But back to the topic...You certainly hit the nail on the head. I can't stand the shennanigans that go on in our hobby. If a consignor wants a reserve why is it so difficult just to have a reserve and it be known? As we spoke, if I go to sell some of my cards I am sure there won't be a market as strong as what I have paid due to the false bidding; that I am positive of. It kind of sucks. best regards

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Leon...i was just kidding around. Barry i meant no harm to you and everyone knows who you are and what you stand for. I just found Bruce's post sappy so i should have just said that. One thing is for sure is that when my cards were sold at Milehigh before i got paid the cards were for sale elsewhere and i will leave it at that. Here is a prime example of what kind of activity takes place at auction houses.



Freeman's auction house just outside of Philadelphia recently sold 5 Faberge items. The estimates on each piece were from 1000 to 3500. I know one of the top 3 Faberge experts in the world and he said 100% the items were fake which i thought all along after handling the pieces, the hallmarks were not right and neither was the craftmanship. The top item sold for 650,000 and two of the others brought 100,000 plus. There could only be two reasons for this. 1.The Russians could possibly be laundering money because what a inventive way to launder 1,000,000, just consign a couple of fakes and then have two people bid the items up so that the money changes hands. 2. The consignor figured by establishing the prices that if they would run them through another auction a few years from now then the prices are set. These kind of activities go on all the time.

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Posted By: leon

no prob.... AND I agree the smoke and mirrors approach sucks. I probably shouldn't say this because I run an auction....but I don't like the fact that any auction house employees can bid in their own auctions. That's just my personal opinion. regards

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Posted By: Rob D.

What would be the harm in a law that would prevent the two or three major auction houses from getting the best consignments? Maybe they could be limited to having only so many items valued at $15,000 or more in an auction, and the rest of the high-profile items could be redistibuted to smaller auction houses, who would then auction them.

After all, is it right that such a small percentage of houses continually get all the best stuff? Don't smaller auction houses and dealers deserve to make a living? Shouldn't the wealth in this hobby be spread around?

Just asking.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

I went to a auction the other day where the family was bidding against the public and also the auctioneer bid on several items. I thought to myself what in the hell is going here? So i thought you know this is just not right so everytime the auctioneer started to bid on a item instead of holding up my bid card i just yelled out yeah loud for the next bid, when the item got near the market value i dumped it on him. After three pieces of that going on he stopped bidding (lol).



The auction took place in Virginia and when i went to settle my bill the auctioneer asked where i was from. He said he did not appreciate me running items on him in the sale and that he genuinely wanted the items.....Rigggghhhhttt i might have been born at night but it was not last night. I told him well the next time you decide to have a auction perhaps take yourself out of the game and do not bid, my belief is no auctioneer or employees should be allowed to bid on items in a sale.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hard to believe an auctioneer would actually say that to an active bidder. Live auctions really have some funky stuff going on. Part of the problem is everything moves so quickly, and most improprieties won't get noticed. Before you can blink you have to focus on the next lot on the block.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

I think the problem with auction house shilling and things of that nature are simple. Everyone knows who the whales are what they buy, also when you see a card that three or four people need to bump their set registry average then that is when someone can be hammered. I only bid at live auctions where i can see what is going on and i never bid against a left bid,phone bid or internet bid. If you look at the above advertisemnt for Mears auction the first bullet point is No Shill Bidding!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Marshall, fraud is obviously rampant in auction houses in general -- and in any unregulated business. As I've been crying about for years, in certain auction houses it's patently clear that items are run up by the house. I think if you cut off all ten fingers of certain acutioneers they'd use their toes to press that button on the computer to run up a price. You cut off their toes, they'd use their noses -- which are appropriately long enough to do the job due to all the lying they've done when loudly and publicly proclaiming that their auctions are clean.

As for Rob, at last you're getting it, comrade. It's about time someone stood up for the little people. And before anyone claims what you're saying is socialism, I disagree: you're just advocating spreading the wealth around, that's all.

Edited to add: yes, I need to find out who does Mears' marketing. Simply brilliant: no shill bidding. What a relief, I feel so much better. Does that rule apply to the 23,000 Mears' items in Mastro's latest auction? Because I've got a hankering for a 1990 NY Knicks Pete Meyers game used jersey and I need to know this before battling it out.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

I'm getting ready to head to a auction today and this place just cracks me up. As soon as i hit the door this gal will spot me and start pointing out where all the rare items are in the sale-as if i could not find them myself- i already know that consignors put things in the sale hoping that myself and a few others will get into bidding wars on them. The last sale i just sat motionless as a painting sold for way under the money and there was so much tension it was sickening. The auctioneer looked my way several times while selling the painting and i just kept reading the Racing Form. Also everytime i bid on items people will bid against me because they feel the piece must be valueable which can get old. Now what i do is just have this old man that i know bid for me and i give him a few Yankee cards for doing it. He is 82 years old and just breathes pinstripes so for him to have a card of Whitey Ford or any other Yankee is heaven.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Jeff you are cracking me up today. Let me say that there is about 20 auction houses within a 40 mile radious of where i live. Every one of those auction houses is unethical in some way or form. This one auctioneer before every sale starts out with bible versus and praising Jesus, he then states that the proceeds will help God's will and the family. The guy is such a con artist that it is sickening but i love the action and have gotten some bargains at his auction house.

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Posted By: Jim VB

"This one auctioneer before every sale starts out with bible versus and praising Jesus, he then states that the proceeds will help God's will and the family."


It's fairly well known that Jesus was a big time collector of Koufax, Greenberg, and several other Jewish players. I'm sure I read that on this board, so it must be true.

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Posted By: Alan

You mean that auctioneer is not Jewish ?

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Let's just say he did not start the day with bagels and cream cheese.

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's also been pointed out that when an ebay seller includes "god bless" in his item description, you know right there he is a con man.

Marshall, you must find an auction to go to every day. Where do you live?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Marshall, I know firsthand some of the complaints you are talking about with local auctions. I used to collect coins and would attend a regular coin auction. They had a guy who would bid the first bid on nearly every single lot and he made sure that gold/silver never went for less than the market value. I found out later that this guy had a gig on the radio with one of the auctioneers appraising items for callers...I saw a story on them in the newspaper. My brother was a much bigger buyer at local auctions than me...I generally only bid on items that I collect (Baseball)..but it got to the point that people would bid against him just because they figured it had to be worth something if he was bidding. I also have had occasion where someone would bid me up just because I was bidding on something so I started bidding on a few items I didn't really care for and then stuck them with it.