Where have all the Cobb HINDU's gone.....?

[tedzan]

......a long time....waiting for them ? ?

OK, I have received numerous inquiries regarding all four T206 Cobb's with respect to Brown and Red HINDU backs. The following
is my observations on this subject.





This story first starts with the KIMBALL Factory (#649) in Rochester, NY. For it's history and it's Tobacco products, checkout
my earlier thread on Net54. During the T-card era, Factory #649 was considered "state-of-the art" with it's modern cigarette
manufacturing machinery.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=kimball


1st.....in 1909 American Litho. selected 35 existing SWEET CAPORAL 150 (Factory #30) subjects and modified their backs by
over-striking them and adding "Factory #649" in order to transfer these T206's to the Rochester plant (to be inserted in their
Sweet Caporal cigarette packs). Major HOFers in this subset include....Bresnahan, Griffith, Johnson, Lajoie, Marquard & Matty.

BUT, NO COBB ?


2nd.....simultaneously, American Litho. was printing T206's with Brown HINDU backs and shipping them to Factory #649.

But, apparently the two 150 Series COBB's (Green Portrait & Bat On) were not targeted to Factory #649 ?


3rd.....by early 1911, American Litho. extended the two 350 series Cobb's (Red Portrait & Bat Off) into the 460 series. Of the
41 - Red HINDU's that are known, guess what 2 subjects are missing....THESE TWO COBB's ? ?


4th.....subsequently, the 1911 T205 set, Cobb is found with 6 different T-backs, but not with the Factory #649 ones (HINDU
and HASSAN).


I cannot explain why Cobb cards were not inserted in Factory #649 cigarette packs. Perhaps, we will never know why. Any-
how, this pattern of Cobb "No Prints" is telling us something and that is.....to be very skeptical of any T206 Cobb cards that
have either a Brown or Red HINDU back.

I may be wrong on this observation. But, it should surely stir up some controversy.


TED Z

[PEEK enterprises]

Bummer - acquiring a Green Portrait with a Hindu Brown back was #1 on my list.

Didn't you just acquire the Bat On Cobb with a Hindu Brown reverse and post it a few weeks back? Are you now questioning its authenticity? I will gladly take it off your hands anytime.

[tedzan]

I acquired that Cobb about 10 years ago. It turned out to be a "re-backed" card. I traded away this Cobb years ago.
I informed the trader that it was not authentic. The F/B scan is still in my BB card library.

In the late 1990's, a rash of re-backed T206 star cards appeared in the hobby. These cards were very professionally
altered and some of them were graded by SGC and PSA. Two of the most "notorious" T206's were a Red Cobb with a
DRUM back and a Matty (portrait) with a Red HINDU back. The latter being an impossible front/back combo, raised an
awful lot of skepticism by veteran T206 collectors and was eventually removed from circulation.



TED Z

[PEEK enterprises]

Thanks for the clarifcation Ted.

That is a shame as the Cobb would have been such a great front/back combo. As with the Matty Portrait with a Red back. It's even more of a shame that several fake front/back combo's could be floating around, some graded by the finest authenticators, that would fool the majority of collectors and end up being nothing but novelty items. Very scary in fact.

Could you then list the backs (non-Piedmont or Sweet Caporal) that a Green Cobb can legitimately be found with? I recently picked up an Old Mill but have seen no others.

Thanks Ted

[insidethewrapper]

I'm so confused now. Which backs exist with each of the 4 Cobb's ? Ted, please list. I had a list which I thought was at 59 total not including the Ty Cobb back. What total do you have ? Again please list.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Double-P-Enterprises

Thanks for the clarifcation Ted.

That is a shame as the Cobb would have been such a great front/back combo. As with the Matty Portrait with a Red back. It's even more of a shame that several fake front/back combo's could be floating around, some graded by the finest authenticators, that would fool the majority of collectors and end up being nothing but novelty items. Very scary in fact.

Could you then list the backs (non-Piedmont or Sweet Caporal) that a Green Cobb can legitimately be found with? I recently picked up an Old Mill but have seen no others.

Thanks Ted

So the 150 series 649 Sweet Cap o/p's and the 350/460 red Hindu's are both a card shy of being divisible by 6 (35 and 41 known respectively)? Interesting. That almost suggests a double print in each series. It might be hard to ID with the red Hindu's but is there a single Sweet Cap from the o/p series that is found with more regularity than the others?

I wonder if the Cobb holdback had something to do with some exclusivity Cobb had in the Factory 649 distribution area which you think would or could include Detroit as it was on the upstate/Great Lakes transport network. Take a look at the Google map below , Rochester products could easily ship out of Buffalo (eastern end of Lake Erie) and go to Detroit (almost Western end of Lake Erie, then short canal trip) by water or probably direct from Rochester by rail.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=roches...ed=0CA4Q8gEwAA

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

Interesting subject.

You stated in the other thread:

"2nd....that brings me to the recent Red Cobb/Red HINDU card you alluded to. Frankly, I am very skeptical about this card as
being a authentic. I would like to see at least one or two more of these to feel confident that this front/back combo is real."

I haven't seen the card in person and it may very well be rebacked, but the red hindus are tough enough that there are several that I've only seen one example of so I don't think that's a good enough reason to discount it. How many Cy Young red hindus have you seen? I know Brian W. has a Johnson/red hindu, but I don't recall seeing another one.

Obviously, going back to Heitman's back theories, Bat On and Green Portrait should be available with brown Hindu backs.

In this thread a while back: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=cobb+hindu

I asked the question about whether or not the Bat On/Hindu combo existed because I knew I had never seen one. Aaron Seefeldt posted scans of both a red cobb/red hindu and a bat on/brown hindu. Not sure if that brown hindu was the same card that you own or what.

Anyways, I would personally guess that a Cobb bat on with brown hindu will turn up.

Rob

[tedzan]

As requested..........

Green portrait
_____________

PIEDMONT 150 Factory 25
PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
SOVEREIGN 150
SWEET CAPORAL 15O Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
OLD MILL

Bat on shoulder
______________

PIEDMONT 150 Factory 25
PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
SOVEREIGN 150
SOVEREIGN 350
SWEET CAPORAL 15O Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
OLD MILL

Bat off shoulder
______________

UZIT
LENOX (black)
LENOX (brown)
CYCLE 460
AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
EPDG
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42
SOVEREIGN 350
SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt)
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25
TOLSTOI
OLD MILL
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
POLAR BEAR

Red portrait
__________

BROAD LEAF 460
DRUM
SOVEREIGN 460
LENOX (black)
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
CYCLE 460
EPDG
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
CYCLE 350
SOVEREIGN 350
SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42
SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt)
SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25
TOLSTOI
OLD MILL
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
POLAR BEAR


TED Z

[tedzan]

You asked several ?'s, I'll start with this one:
" Obviously, going back to Heitman's back theories, Bat On and Green Portrait should be available with
brown Hindu backs. "

Over 30 years ago when Bill researched his book, he didn't have the benefit of the Internet. Neverthe-
less, Bill once told me he had sampled several 100,000's (if not a million) of T206's, so one would think
he'd come across at least one Cobb (green or bat on) HINDU ? Furthermore, when "The Monster" was
published (in 1980) he said he knew of only 6 red HINDU cards.


2nd ?...." Not sure if that brown hindu was the same card that you own or what. "

The fellow I traded that card to submitted it for grading (back in 2002) and it was rejected as being
"altered".

3rd ?...." How many Cy Young red hindus have you seen? "

I have never seen this CYoung; however, a Net54er has seen it and told me about it. And, I trust his
word. Yes, there are some Red HINDU's that appear to be unique and there are others that exist in
multiples.

Rob, I would love to see an original Cobb HINDU of any stripe. But, after 29 years of collecting T206's
I have not seen one. It has certainly been a mystery to me and that is why I have delved into the
"nitty-gritty" of perhaps why. Simply, because my mind desires a plausible explanation. So, we can
not ignore this "Factory #649" pattern that is evident across three T-brands and two T-card issues.

Whatever, I await to see a HINDU Cobb (T205 or T206).


TED Z

[caramelcard]

Thanks Ted,

Just to follow up a bit...

I have seen the Cy Young with Red Hindu. A friend of mine has an example and I know it's legit.

I do remember (and I'm sure you do too) the rebacked green cobb with red hindu which was an obvious reback job on ebay many years ago. That card was just silly. I'm not familiar with your brown hindu reback.

When I asked you about the brown hindu whether or not if was yours, I was referring to the graded example that was in the thread that I included in my last post.

That was another example of a Cobb Bat on with brown hindu. If Aaron still has the scan and sees this thread perhaps he'll post it again.

The red hindu/red cobb was a high grade example. One would think it would be fairly easy to spot a reback job with that card, but you never know with PSA handling and encapsulating the card.

Thanks Ted! I hope one day we can confirm one.

Rob

[tedzan]

Rob

I can add two more significant "fakes" to the mix that have been graded (4's or 5's)....that I have seen.


T206 Cobb (bat off) with a PIEDMONT 150 back....a NO-NO F/B combo

T206 Joe Doyle error with a POLAR BEAR back....Doyle error only exists with a PIEDMONT 350 back


I'm sure other some other Net54er's can chime in with more "altered" cards that they are aware of.

Meanwhile, don't discount the "Factory #649 factor" regarding Cobb's that I have presented here.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Dave

Sounds like you agree with my T206 "6-card" basic denominator theory. Anyhow, let's further consider the Sweet Cap 150,
Factory 649 sub-set. I think this was initially a 36-card design and ALC removed a subject (perhaps, either Cobb or Plank).
Whatever, that's besides the point here. Check-out this comparison of 1st series Detroit players......

Sweet Cap 150 (factory 649)................Brown HINDU

.................................................. Donovan (portrait)
Killian (pitching)..............................Killian (pitching)
O'Leary (portrait)............................O'Leary (portrait)
Schmidt (throwing).........................Schmidt (throwing)

Continuing.........

Sweet Cap 150 (factory 649)................Brown HINDU

Jim Delehanty....traded to Detroit 8/09.......DITTO

Tom Jones....traded to Detroit 8/09...........DITTO


I think the above data illustrates that there was not a "diabolical scheme" NOT to print Detroit players with HINDU or SWEET
CAP 150 (f649) backs.

So then, why did ALC not print Cobb with these T-brands ?

The "Factory #649 factor" mystery thickens ? ?


TED Z

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Dave

Sounds like you agree with my T206 "6-card" basic denominator theory. Anyhow, let's further consider the Sweet Cap 150,
Factory 649 sub-set. I think this was initially a 36-card design and ALC removed a subject (perhaps, either Cobb or Plank).
Whatever, that's besides the point here. Check-out this comparison of 1st series Detroit players......

Sweet Cap 150 (factory 649)................Brown HINDU

.................................................. Donovan (portrait)
Killian (pitching)..............................Killian (pitching)
O'Leary (portrait)............................O'Leary (portrait)
Schmidt (throwing).........................Schmidt (throwing)

Continuing.........

Sweet Cap 150 (factory 649)................Brown HINDU

Jim Delehanty....traded to Detroit 8/09.......DITTO

Tom Jones....traded to Detroit 8/09...........DITTO


I think the above data illustrates that there was not a "diabolical scheme" NOT to print Detroit players with HINDU or SWEET
CAP 150 (f649) backs.

So then, why did ALC not print Cobb with these T-brands ?

The "Factory #649 factor" mystery thickens ? ?


TED Z

Ted:

The 6 denominator looks like a winner to me. Now, as for Detroit players, the fact there are that many Detroiters on Brown Hindu in series 1 helps solidify my Detroit distribution theory from the Rochester factory #649 I think.

I still wonder if Cobb had an exclusive local or regional promotional or services deal in Detroit that prohibited his appearance on cards destined for that city and environs. And don't forget that newpaper article (at work and can't search for the link right now) previously posted here from 1909 that mentions Cobb and Wagner being in short supply, seemingly therefore in the 150 series cards. I can't recall the town from the article so let's call it East Apple.

Wagner is once thing but Cobb being mentioned in the same breath but obviously not being as rare could be the result of inadvertent selective marketing. Suppose a run of cards was made and obviously a finite number of backs could result, so let's say the Brown Hindu run is done being printed and it has no Green Cobbs on it. That same sheet or run of 35 subjects is then printed for the East Apple market with a more common back but still minus the Green Cobb even though there was no reason to exclude him except in Detroit, it's just there are fronts printed that need to be used, or backs that need fronts that are already composed.

Sweet Caps with Wagner then arrive in East Apple and then they run some other sheets in the 150/350 series for this particular market that have the Green Cobb and we get to the 150/350 portion of things and the Green Cobb is finally hitting the streets down there as well, resulting in the newsman's observation Cobb and Wagner have finally been spotted.

Hope that makes some sense, I am going from memory at the moment but there had to be some geographical distribution arrangement for each run of cards and in some cases specific players and of course, whether a 150 or 350 series marketing plan made sense. Pulling Cobb from the Detroit packs makes little sense unless he was prohibited from appearing or they deliberately held back to sell more cigs but I think we have seen evidence elsewhere they overprinted cards to sell product and did not shortprint them for the same purpose.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong as Dennis Miller used to say.

[rman444]

Ted,

In your opinion, is this a card that has been rebacked and holdered by PSA in error?

[caramelcard]

Thanks for posting that Richard.

Why do folks think this is rebacked? Is there anything that suggests it is?

If it is rebacked, it's by far the best job I've ever seen. Usually, even from a scan you can see a bit of discoloration around the edges or slight adhesive discoloration somewhere throughout the card. Never say never though.



Rob

[tedzan]

You asked...." In your opinion, is this a card that has been rebacked and holdered by PSA in error? "

That is the one and only.....and, yes I am one of several "dinosaur" collectors that are skeptical of this card.

And, the fact that it is graded is immaterial. We just cited several re-backed T206's in the prior posts on this
thread; and, everyone of them has been graded at one time or another.


T-Rex TED

[chaddurbin]

that cobb looks damn good to me, nice and clean...could've been rebacked at the original factory . if it's really rebacked and someone could've done that good a job...then wouldn't it be easier for them to do a known back like cobb bat off/uzit or drum?

[tedzan]

If you haven't seen this Matty that I alluded to in an earlier post, then check it out......

http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_4.html

It makes the Red Cobb/Red HINDU look like a "pretender". You have to realize that professional paper restorers are
working on these altered cards. I know of such a professional that restores artifacts dating back to centuries-old
stuff. You would be amazed at the restorations that they can achieve.


Rob A

With respect to Red HINDU, in an earlier post you noted Brian W's Johnson (pitching) card as being one of a kind.
Trust me, there are more than one known. They might not be as pretty as Brian's....but, it is one of the cards in
the Red HINDU population that exists in multiples.


Ted Z

[E93]

Originally Posted by tedzan

..
3rd.....by early 1911, American Litho. extended the two 350 series Cobb's (Red Portrait & Bat Off) into the 460 series. Of the
41 - Red HINDU's that are known, guess what 2 subjects are missing....THESE TWO COBB's ? ?



TED Z

The red Hindu, red portrait Cobb above, which I remember was in a Mastro auction about ten or eleven years ago, looks good to me. I don't see any glaring reason to suspect it is re-backed. It would be easy enough to put it under a black light and look at the edges to see if any glue fluoresces. But my hunch is that the more likely scenario is that is legit. If in theory a bat off example should also exist, given the extreme rarity of all red Hindus (usually only one-two known examples of known issues), it would not be at all surprising if it was simply that none survived. I can't see Cobb being ok with printing millions of those cards, but singling out a single factory or distribution area that he did not want them.
JimB

[tedzan]

So far, fortunately for most of us T206 collectors, the professional restorers that are re-backing T206's are
not that knowledgeable on all T206 front/back combos. This has been evident since the 1990's, when many
of these "fakes" were surfacing.

But, when the day arrives that these scammers are knowledgeable, the hobby will be in "deep do-do".


TED Z

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
" If in theory a bat off example should also exist, given the extreme rarity of all red Hindus (usually only one-two
known examples of known issues) "

I have two responses:

1....The Cobb (bat off) pose (a 350/460 series card) exists with an American Beauty 460 back; therefore, it will
not be found with a Red HINDU back.

2....You are the 2nd guy to imply that Red HINDU's are so, so rare that most subjects exist with only one (or 2)
examples.
My records of these cards indicate that most of the 41 confirmed subjects are more available than just one (or 2).

Hey guys, we need some BVG, PSA ans SGC POP reports on the Red HINDU's.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

I have no opinion of the Cobb with Red Hindu back other than to say the scan looks good to me too. But do not underestimate the skill of a paper restorer, and please be certain that there are rebacked cards residing in holders.

[E93]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I have two responses:

1....The Cobb (bat off) pose (a 350/460 series card) exists with an American Beauty 460 back; therefore, it will
not be found with a Red HINDU back.


TED Z

Ted, my friend,
Then if one would not expect a bat off/red hindu (I misread your original post - point #3 - to presume that we should expect one), and we do have a red portrait example here (with no compelling reason to believe it is not authentic and unaltered), then is there still a problem or mystery still remaining?
JimB

[Wesley]

Interesting thread. The Red Hindu Cobb that Richard posted was auctioned last May in REA. Did anyone bring this to Rob's attention?

[tedzan]

......"long time passing"....since I've seen some POP reports....for whatever they are worth....regarding T206 Cobb/HINDU cards.

Hey guys......anyone......please post PSA, SGC, or BVG ?


Regards,

TED Z

[sando69]

ted-
of the 1302 total t206 ty cobb cards graded by sgc, zero have been designated with a hindu reverse (either brown or red)!

[tedzan]

Mark S

Thanks for checking out and posting the SGC data on the T206 Cobb's.

This data certainly reinforces my "Factory #649 factor" regarding the No-Printing of HINDU Cobb's.


Best regards ole buddy, and I hope you're enjoying warm weather out there on the coast. Here in Pennsy,
we are enduring 0 degrees W/C factor. Just South of us, VA and NC are having a 12 inch snowstorm.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Do the early PSA POP reports provide data on the T206 Cobb back's ?

As I noted earlier here, it was approx. 10 years ago that a rash of professionally "re-backed" T206 star cards
were surfacing in the hobby.

We have the SGC data, how about some one posting the PSA POP report ?

And, the BVG POP report ? ?


Thanks,

TED Z

[rman444]

Ted -

It was not until only recently that PSA started to note the backs of T206's, so all of the older PSA graded Cobbs will not be broken down by back.

I believe that Beckett had that rebacked red portrait Drum holdered at one point and then they took it off the market. Not sure if they pulled it off their pop report as well.

[tedzan]

Thanks for that info on PSA....I had guessed that. Not being a subscriber to PSA, though, I was not
quite sure.

So, it was Beckett that had graded the re-backed red Cobb/DRUM card ? Was that a 2nd go-around
after a prior company had graded it ? ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Now, here is the rest of this "Factory #649 story"....as it pertains to Cobb.

Some time in 1911, the American Lithographic Co. (ALC) issued their Mecca (T201) Double-folder set of 50 cards (100 subjects).

Surprise, surprise....finally, Cobb's image is on a Factory #649 card. Unbelievably though, ALC places Cobb on the flip-side of the
Crawford card. In 1911, Cobb was having the best year of his BB career....batting .420, 248 Hits, and 127 RBI's. Yet, ALC printed
Cobb on the "short side" of their Crawford/Cobb card. The "Factory #649" mystery continues.

I sold my T201 Mecca set 10 years ago (except the Johnson/Street card). Here is the flip-side of my Johnson/Street card to illu-
strate what's going on here (for anyone unfamiliar with these Mecca cards). Can anyone imagine, relegating Cobb to "secondary
status" in any BB card set ?








Would anyone like to post here F/B scans of their T201 Crawford/Cobb card ?


Thanks,

TED Z

[ethicsprof]

very interesting research, as always, Ted.
what makes this issue particularly difficult is the anonymous collectors, or at least very reticent collectors, who choose to remain under the radar when they have valuable information to contribute. certainly, i understand and respect their privacy.
i know of one T206 scholar/collector who has had 2 Cobb brown hindus for around a decade now. typically, the simultaneity of his acquisition and the
rash of re-backed T206s from around that time period could raise a red flag or at least 'worry' regarding their authenticity. I use the word 'typically', because i do not believe that this esteemed T206 scholar/collector would be
fooled, even by the best. This gentleman is a card analyst,par excellence.
Therefore, from my own experience, I would agree with you--with slight nuance--that the Cobb/Hindu is the 'rarest of the rare'; in fact, I think that
counting them on one hand is all that is necessary---and it may well be that
2 fingers is plenty.
all the best,ole friend

barry

[tedzan]

Sorry that my reply to you is late, but responding to your......

" The red Hindu, red portrait Cobb above, which I remember was in a Mastro auction about ten or eleven years ago, looks
good to me. I don't see any glaring reason to suspect it is re-backed. "

Please check-out this Red HINDU card's scan, and strictly from its appearance, tell me if you suspect that it is re-backed ?

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_23.html


Incidently, this Red HINDU Matty was graded about 10 years ago, same time you saw the Red HINDU Cobb in Mastro's auction.

Is that just mere coincidence ? ......I don't think so !


Furthermore, several years ago, these two graded T206 Cobb's were sold.

Cobb (Green portrait) with a Red HINDU back

Cobb (Bat OFF) with a PIEDMONT 150 back


Jim....need I say more ? ?


Best regards,

TED Z

[Brian-Chidester]

The doctoring of cards seems to be the natural progression when the commerce side of things has deemed this series too valueable for the hoi polloi.

Not that purists don't remain, nor to say that scholarship hasn't grown since T206 became the province of the wealthy, because both have invariably happened. But isn't it the least bit ironic that Jefferson Burdick, who first gave the set its name and parameters, and got this whole hobby rolling, would today not be able to afford the very Wagner that he hoisted up as the hobby's great scarcity, given his modest income?

Michael O'Keefe and Teri Thompson's book The Card hit the nail on the head, and while we look at guys like Bill Maestro as the villains and the Rob Lifsons as the heroes, the truth is, what they have done with the vintage card market has permeated the entire market of cards, so that now even newly-produced baseball cards are out of the reaches of kids, and like Orson Welles pointed out about the fine art world in his film F for Fake (1975), holds true for us in the basball card world, as we no longer have access to the truth about our cardboard's history. It has been clouded by two slabs of plastic and a nefarious price mark-up. I'm sure many don't care, and others would call me a commie or ludite, but so be it.

[Brian-Chidester]

With regard to the Hindu Cobb card, hypothesese are being built upon hypothesese here, which is fine, but it is a stretch to say that, just because not many examples of an already-rare back exist in the grading registries or within members of the Net54 community, that none ever really existed at all.

Maybe some cards have been re-backed, but not all specimens can be disregarded, even if there are only two forthcoming. The likelihood of slabs coming off and cards being put into distilled water is low. But Mr. Zanidakis, your knowledge of T206 types is astounding. I hope I didn't derail your thread in any way.

I think my skepticism sometimes gets in the way of any progress on either side.

[barrysloate]

Brian- I am skeptical too, and I have my doubts about this Cobb with Red Hindu back. It's just a gut feeling, that's all.