1969 Topps Baseball Rack Packs- Are they legitimate?

[Mitochondria]

Contemplating sending these 1969 Topps Baseball rack packs in for authentication by BBCE. My concern is that 2 of these rack packs appear to be from the 2nd series and I have seen comments in some forums that Topps did not have rack packs outside the 1st series in 1969. Am I in for a world of hurt attempting to have these authenticated? Any advice on what I should look for with regards to authenticity?














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[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I love the double durocher/dalrymple pack, and I don't think, if someone were going to fake something, they would ever do that!

[philliesfan]

Nice Racks! I am no expert by any means but they look good to me.
I would send in 2 or three including the 2nd series pack and see what happens. If they come back ok, send in the rest.
Bob

[jmoran19]

I have some info for you, PM sent

John

[butchie_t]

They make me nervous.

Nervous because I would have no discipline owning them. I’d be gripping and ripping. I have little self control in those matters.

They all look sweet to me.

[aronbenabe]

...dittos, I’d rip right into those looking for a mint Yaz, Rose or Mays. No discipline here. Lol


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[swarmee]

You may want to call BBCE and ask them about the 2nd series rack packs. I'm sure they'd give you an answer as to whether they made any at all, or whether they would consider authenticating them before you pay the money to send those ones.

[Mitochondria]

Originally Posted by swarmee

You may want to call BBCE and ask them about the 2nd series rack packs. I'm sure they'd give you an answer as to whether they made any at all, or whether they would consider authenticating them before you pay the money to send those ones.

Steve Hart was kind enough to respond to my email to BBCE and he stated that he would be happy to evaluate them. I’m going to follow the sage advice from this group and start by submitting 2 rack packs to BBCE.

I believe the 1969 Topps rack pack with Stanley/NL Batting Leaders/ Gladding is a fake after careful examination. I purchased the pack on Ebay on 12-19-99 for $405 from “jhustle1” from Jericho, NY. eBay states that the handle is no longer active. The fact that this rack pack had both 1st and 2nd series cards caught my attention. I just noticed that card #171 Glenn Beckert was on the back. When I looked back at the original description (I keep copies of my past purchases), he/she did mention that the pack had 1st and 2nd series cards, but never mentioned that it was tampered with. There are several other clues on why I believe this rack pack is fake compared to the others:
1. The “crimp” pattern between each set of 12 cards (36 total) appears to only have 3 dotted rows and measures 3 cm as opposed to the other 4 rack packs (from different sources) which have 4 dotted rows and measure 4 cm in width.
2. The plastic feels comparatively “flimsy” and less durable than the other packs.
3. The width of this rack pack on the top and bottom edges ranges from 11.3 to 11.4 cm compared to 11.7 to 11.8 cm for the others.
4. There appears to be very slight wear on the corners of the cards in this pack. In contrast, the corners of the cards in the other four rack packs are razor sharp and exhibit no wear. There is damage to some of the cards on the front and back of the other packs, but the corners exhibit no wear.
5. There are these tiny bubbles that I can see under close inspection (first 2 images attached) that I would not have noticed without the other packs for comparison. (Perhaps this rack pack was heated in order to seal it? I’m not sure)
6. There is this plastic “spine” on the other 4 rack packs that does not exist on this pack. I’ve attached an image (at the end) to compare alongside a rack pack that has this spine.
7. Lastly, the other 4 rack packs have this serrated edge that is palpable and has a more frequent pattern of spikes compared to the fake rack pack.

Is anyone aware of a legitimate 1969 Topps Baseball Rack Pack (non-Christmas) that has a combination of different series?





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[upstateNYmilb]

Great episode of Golden Age of Cardboard on this topic:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR...NDg0MzUy?ep=14

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[jmoran19]

Your findings are spot on, the “combo” series rak is fake

[Cliff Bowman]

Never mind, my mistake.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Mitochondria

I purchased the pack on Ebay on 12-19-99 for $405 from “jhustle1” from Jericho, NY. eBay states that the handle is no longer active.

Is the link below the same seller? If so, appears to still be active.

https://newyork-company.com/co/johnn...ding-cards-inc

[Mitochondria]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

Is the link below the same seller? If so, appears to still be active.

https://newyork-company.com/co/johnn...ding-cards-inc

Thank you for the link. Steve Hart has agreed to evaluate all the rack packs and he will not charge me if the one rack pack is a fake. I will then (once its declared "altered") kindly reach out to the dealer and request a refund. Of course, he will be able to claim "beyond statute of limitations", but that will be his/her call

[mortimer brewster]

jhustle1 is still active. I've purchased several lots from him the past few years. Has excellent feedback.

[Harliduck]

Zero idea here...but these are super cool and I would have already ripped open the double Dalrymple pack as the curiosity of which variation pose would be killing me!

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Harliduck

Zero idea here...but these are super cool and I would have already ripped open the double Dalrymple pack as the curiosity of which variation pose would be killing me!

I'd be right there with you on this comment!

[mikemb]

Originally Posted by Harliduck

Zero idea here...but these are super cool and I would have already ripped open the double Dalrymple pack as the curiosity of which variation pose would be killing me!

They are both the Orioles variation.

Mike

[Harliduck]

Originally Posted by mikemb

They are both the Orioles variation.

Mike

Bummer....

Is there something I missed where you would know?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Harliduck

Bummer....

Is there something I missed where you would know?

The Phillies variation starts "A top notch receiver..."

[Harliduck]

Originally Posted by swarmee

The Phillies variation starts "A top notch receiver..."

Dang...love this place...learn something new every day. I have several of each and never knew that. Just check, sure as sh*t...COOL.

Well, I'd still open at least one...haha...

[ALBB]

Johnny Hustle..John A...never had any issues with himn

[Mitochondria]

My only objective is to acquire genuine 1969 Topps baseball rack packs. To be fair, the seller clearly stated that the rack pack contained both 1st and 2nd series cards and he characterized the pack as “ExMt”. Only the front of the rack pack was shown during the auction. It’s possible that he had no idea that the pack was tampered.

It’s actually well done. Whoever created the rack pack knew not to use another crimper device, but rather some undefined heat source that resealed the edge. Again, you can’t see the micro bubbles very well with the naked eye and my up close images are not good. It looks and feels (at first) to be a genuine rack pack. Neither he or I knew that it was not possible to have cards from different series in the same pack. Interestingly, I am seeing graded vintage rack packs by GAI that look very questionable after my experience with these packs







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[Mitochondria]

Here is the 1969 1st series and 2nd series sheets. I’m still trying to work my mind around whether the collating makes sense for the 4 remaining rack packs. For instance, the 2nd series pack with the two
Durocher cards seem to be logical given that he was double printed. I don’t understand how Dalrymple (he is probably an Oriole in this pack) ends up as the back card twice when he is only one row removed on the sheet. Does anyone have an explanation?





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[Mitochondria]

2nd Series sheet




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[Mitochondria]

The other 2nd series pack the Gibson 2nd series checklist with Pete Ward (back card) on the very next row; Tommy Davis with Game 4 of the World Series (back card) and then Jim Perry with Gerry Arrigo (Back card).

Which direction would the collation run, horizontal or vertical?

[Mitochondria]

The 1st series pack with Matty Alou on the front (2nd slot) and Paul Popvich (on the back). Is there any chance that the collation of the cards in the middle could possibly contain a Hank Aaron and Bob Clemente based on where they are positioned on the sheet? This is really outside the scope of my experience/expertise.

[Kevvyg1026]

Both series 1 & series 2 from 1969 were printed with 110 cards. Series 1 had 1-109, with check 1 in two different rows. Series 2 had 110-218, with check 2 printed again.

For series with 110 cards, Topps would have used a print pattern of 4 rows printed 3x each and six rows printed 2x each across the sheet, which was split into two slits of 132 cards. Only one slit of each series is shown.

If the 2nd slit is examined, you can see that for series 2, the rows with Yaz, Nossek, Gibson, & Reichardt as the leading cards were the rows printed 3x each, with the remaining six rows printed 2x each.

I haven't seen the 2nd slit from series 1, so I only know that the Lonborg & Krause rows were printed 3x, but I don't know which of the other two rows were printed 3x.

[Mitochondria]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Both series 1 & series 2 from 1969 were printed with 110 cards. Series 1 had 1-109, with check 1 in two different rows. Series 2 had 110-218, with check 2 printed again.

For series with 110 cards, Topps would have used a print pattern of 4 rows printed 3x each and six rows printed 2x each across the sheet, which was split into two slits of 132 cards. Only one slit of each series is shown.

If the 2nd slit is examined, you can see that for series 2, the rows with Yaz, Nossek, Gibson, & Reichardt as the leading cards were the rows printed 3x each, with the remaining six rows printed 2x each.

I haven't seen the 2nd slit from series 1, so I only know that the Lonborg & Krause rows were printed 3x, but I don't know which of the other two rows were printed 3x.

Thank you Kevvyg1026. This is helpful. This is consistent with what Bob Cacamese explained to me in the past. Each series in the Topps 1969 set was printed in 2 sheets and I am only showing one sheet (slit) for each series. I'll try to search for other sheets (for the 1st and 2nd series) to see if I can make sense of the collation. Not sure if I'll be able to predict which cards are sandwiched between the front and back cards in each slot, but I'll explore.

[Kevvyg1026]

Here is other slit from series 2.

69_series_2R.jpg

And this info suggests that the Salmon row may be one of the four rows printed 3x in the series 1, (already know that Lonborg & Krause rows were 2 of the 4.).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k5xwFdklOb9qZVL0tslIrmZTTv-F3c6v/view?usp=sharing[/IMG]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NuGTYu2ZAqtZNSBLN0M0HslBcmpIxIX9/view?usp=sharing[/IMG]

[DBesse27]

Sent you a PM yesterday. Thanks.

[Mitochondria]

Thank you for the 2nd series slit image. I sent a request to see image in google drive. I've responded to all PMs. These rack packs are part of my collection and not for sale for now. Thank you.

[Kevvyg1026]

See accompanying images

1969_1_edge.jpg

1969_62.jpg

[Streetsideguy]

PM Sent

[Mitochondria]

Update- Two 1st Series rack packs and two 2nd Series rack packs passed the authentication test. The 1969 rack pack with the Rose leader card did not.

Steve Hart (BBCE) characterized the multiple “bubbles” that I see as “frosting” that suggests that the pack may have been resealed. He stated you could find multiple series in the same pack, but not in the same slot as evident in the “Rose Leader” (1st series card) pack; the back of that card compartment/slot is #171 Glenn Beckert (2nd Series card). The area in between the card compartments in the “Rose Leader” rack pack is too narrow for 1969. The authenticated rack packs have a wider separation. Steve did not mention this, but the authenticated rack packs seem to have a thicker and more durable material than the non-authenticated rack pack when you feel it in your hands. I want to be clear that I can see microbubbles under 30X magnification in the authenticated packs, but they are no where near the extent in the pack that was not authenticated. I appreciate the feedback I received in analyzing these rack packs from the members as well as the perspective of Steve Hart (BBCE). None of the rack packs are for sale and I will not return the rack pack that was not authenticated, but rather keep it as an expensive lesson for what to avoid in the future.


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[Mitochondria]

Delete

[Hxcmilkshake]

Open the Rose pack!

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[Mitochondria]

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[GasHouseGang]

Oh well, just gives you something to open! If you do open it, take pictures or even video and let us live the dream with you.

[mrmopar]

I find that extremely awesome that you kept records like this, including copies of the ebay screenshots. I rediscovered that I did as well, for at least 1 purchase! There may be others, but it was not a common thing for me to do, I know this for sure.

However, at some point I did also always kept the Topps Vault receipts for any purchases from them, but that was not dating back to my first purchases unfortunately. If I won 12 items, I'd make 12 copies and put 1 with each Vault certificate. Wish I would have thought to do that in the beginning.

Originally Posted by Mitochondria

My only objective is to acquire genuine 1969 Topps baseball rack packs. To be fair, the seller clearly stated that the rack pack contained both 1st and 2nd series cards and he characterized the pack as “ExMt”. Only the front of the rack pack was shown during the auction. It’s possible that he had no idea that the pack was tampered.

It’s actually well done. Whoever created the rack pack knew not to use another crimper device, but rather some undefined heat source that resealed the edge. Again, you can’t see the micro bubbles very well with the naked eye and my up close images are not good. It looks and feels (at first) to be a genuine rack pack. Neither he or I knew that it was not possible to have cards from different series in the same pack. Interestingly, I am seeing graded vintage rack packs by GAI that look very questionable after my experience with these packs







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