Show me the back of the card, please!

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Posted By: Brad Green

It really bothers me when sellers on eBay only show me a picture of the front of the card and fail to show a picture of the back of the card that they are selling. (I'm aware that many of the folks that post here sell cards on eBay. I don't want to make anyone mad...)

But, when I buy the card, doesn't the back of the card also come in the mail? When I get the card out to look at it and enjoy it, don't I turn it over and look at the back? It seems like the condition of the back of the card is ALMOST as important as what the front looks like. Everytime I only see a scan of the front, it makes me wonder why the seller is not showing the back of the card. Is something wrong with it?

What do you guys think about this? Have you ever decided to not bid on a card because the seller doesn't show a picture of the back?

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Posted By: jackgoodman

If it's a card I expect to bring a decent price, I'll include a pix of the reverse. But if it's just a mid priced one, I'll save the little bit extra that Ebay charges for posting a second photo (it starts to add up) - but I always tell potential bidders that a scan of the back is available if they request it (as well as a higher res scan of the front if they'd like).

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Posted By: Brian

Depends on the card.....more than $20 and I like to see the back, slabbed or not. What gets me a little bit is when the back isn't even mentioned. I collect Ty Cobbs, espicially T206s. To me the back and factory designation are important, even if they are common. I'm constantly sending emails to get the back info.

Brian E

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

with BMWSportscards....bought a 51-52 Parkhurst Howe from Brian and Michael. I'd already bought three 51 Parkhursts from them, and they had all perfectly clean, plain backs. This one arrived with a big swatch of paper tape all down the back, with big numbers in it! When I called, Brian said, in effect, he felt about 51 Parkhursts about like I feel about Old Judges (who gives a damn what's on the back?). HOWEVER, he knew many people DIDN'T feel that way (many people don't feel that way about Old Judges, either--including grading companies...), and offered to pay to have it sent to a conservator Michael recommended--she'll be working on it this weekwend, already having gotten the card---and thinks it will be an easy job. If I am NOT satisfied with the result, they will replace the card, return my money, or somehow make it up to me.

They had 4 (!) 51-52 Howe Parkhursts, but I liked this one best. Before I spoke to them, I had thought I'd return the one they sent, plus the '54 Topps Howe, and buy one twice as expensive...but I really like the front of mine!

Two Parkhursts--rather primitaive, but very nice, and very important, because there had been no other hockey cards since the late '30s, except for small sets that also came out in '51. LOts of important rookie cards...

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Had a really weird (but ultimately very nice) experience October 5 2005, 10:13 PM


with BMWSportscards....bought a 51-52 Parkhurst Howe from Brian and Michael. I'd already bought three 51 Parkhursts from them, and they had all perfectly clean, plain backs. This one arrived with a big swatch of paper tape all down the back, with big numbers in it! When I called, Brian said, in effect, he felt about 51 Parkhursts about like I feel about Old Judges (who gives a damn what's on the back?). HOWEVER, he knew many people DIDN'T feel that way (many people don't feel that way about Old Judges, either--including grading companies...), and offered to pay to have it sent to a conservator Michael recommended--she'll be working on it this weekwend, already having gotten the card---and thinks it will be an easy job. If I am NOT satisfied with the result, they will replace the card, return my money, or somehow make it up to me.

I am surprised that BMW would recommend restoration. I am not doubting your understanding of the conversation but not too long ago they were posting how unethical that was.

Things have really changed on this board. Now there is a high profile dealer to go along with a lawyer and a handful of other collectors who post on this forum who are recommending such practices.

Don't mean to hijack the thread but maybe it is time to bring back the discussion of when it is ok (or maybe more appropriately, who is permitted) to engage in card restoration/removal?

Greg

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

it will grade. If marks are left, it will not. End of story.

They don't mess with cards themselves, BTW...

OH LORD! Did I open a big can of worms...?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

but I agree with Greg.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

told me.) The card would nOT grade, because in removing the tape, whopever did it removed a tiny bit of surface gloss...I sold it as an ungradable card, and the person who bought it paid accordingly. (He also made one attempt at getting it graded, to no avail).

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Does it really matter if it is they who are performing the services or paying someone else to do it? I think the issue I raised remains the same.

Anyway, I am glad that you shared this with everyone. It is something that obviously needs to be discussed.

I am off to the gym. When I get back I expect to read 72 more posts on this thread.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

............

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Posted By: Cobby33

I include a scan of the back if it's a high-dollar card; if it's a "scarce back" or if there's something wrong with it that deserves mention. Otherwise, it's not worth the expense and trouble scanning and posting it. In most instances, a back is a back and it's generally in like condition of the front (if not, post a scan).

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Posted By: leon

We've been over this before ad nauseum but what the heck. My personal opinion, and not necessarily that of a grading company, is that if you can remove something that wasn't supposed to be there in the first place AND you can't tell anything was ever there....then no big deal. Quite honestly if something was removed from a 50k card I was buying (if I had that much money to spend) and there was nothing there at all anymore, I don't think I would care if someone told me something got taken off or not. It just wouldn't make any difference to me. I know others might have opposing opinions on this. I know for a fact if there is a real light pencil mark, and no indention at all, and you get the mark off with an eraser then it will grade as if there wasb never anything there. This used to be a PSA 6 MK. I bought it in a Mastro auction some years ago and erased a light pencil mark on the back......


edited to get back to the first topic question and say I always like to see a scan of the back except on blank backs...then, a description will do.

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Posted By: BlackSoxFan

for any person on here who spends anything on pictures for ebay...got one word for you..... EXTERNAL HOSTING.... we store all of our pics on our own website.... saves a ton of dough and even if you don't have your own site, there are plenty of free and low cost storage costs available.

Regards,

Black Sox Fan

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email me

* I'm smart enough to know that there are a lot of people who know more than I do.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

......

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Adding and Removing is deemed out of bounds by every major grading company. It is a very slippery slope to say that it is ok to do this or that but not this but maybe that. Its much easier to say don't add and don't remove from a card and draw the line. Soaking T206's from old photo albums seems to be a different story.

But in this case someone desribed getting a PSA 6 MK into a straight 6, unless everybody believes in magic, the card was altered.

I think that disclosure is the key, if you plan on using a paper conservator to improve a card that you have no intention of grading to resell and plan to disclose the fact if you ever do sell the card, then fine. But adding or removing to improve the card inorder to regrade it to ascertain a higher grade only to sell it for a profit seems to be out of bounds.

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Posted By: BlackSoxFan

The only reason i've contacted someone about the mold is the preservation of the card..not improvement of the grade!

Regards,

Black Sox Fan

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email me

* I'm smart enough to know that there are a lot of people who know more than I do.

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Posted By: Rick

Its a fine line.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Not sure it will be necessary after all this!

Ted: another thing about mold (or mould...which is it?), is that it can spread to other cards, and besides...it smells moldy! I've never found anything I was willing to use on my (very thin!) T202s that have "cark ick."

One other card I have (personally, no less!) altered: a '35 Ruth, McManus, etc--the rare one. The corners are very rounded, and the sides are quite worn, but I erased a "1934" (wrong date) from the back--however, it was done with such a hard-pressed pencil that the mark still shows.

I think that about covers my card sins...I'll see how I feel about the Howe when it comes back. OH YES: I took a Scrapps Comiskey, with a perfect front, and almost half an inch of various kinds of stuck paper on the back, wet the back with a Q-tip swab, and started scratching with a toothpick, gently. When I got down to card,--stuff stopped coming off. For about half a year, the back was discolored--just as if wood glue had been there. Then it faded...

That's GOTTA be all...

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Posted By: jay behrens

The only time I show the back is if there is damage to the back, otherwise I will make a note about the back, such as factory, etc for t206s and mention that scans of the back are available. I've had very few requests for the back scans.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Charlie on the Rock:

Thanks for those cards! BUT... is there any way you can show the backs on EBay from now on?

I'm sure the ones I bought will be fine...

but it would be easier to buy from you if we could see the backs.

I look forward to buying from you again!

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I think one can only judge "restoration" on a case by case basis using common sense. For example, Leon's erasure of a light pencil mark seems trivial, but if a card had heavy pen marks and one removed them by soaking the card in chemicals, that seems more significant, although the same general principle (removing something that wasn't supposed to be there) applies to both.

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Posted By: leon

Big disagreement on this one. Again, this is probably one of those individual preference things. The way I look at the light pencil mark on the back of my Comisky is that someone altered it by writing on it. I removed the alteration. Since there is absolutley nothing there then it's not altered anymore. I have absolutely no issue with taking things off of cards that weren't supposed to be there in the first place. If you want to leave marks on yours then that's fine by me. Different ideas are what makes the world go round. BTW, the magic is called a Mars Plastic Eraser. It's the best thing since Houdini. One last thing, I don't feel the need to disclose that I erased a light pencil mark from the back either. It didn't start out from the mfg there...and now it's not there. ... best regards

edited for grammar

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Posted By: David Vargha

As a buyer, unless the back is an unusual variety, has damage or is very off-center, I couldn't care less if the back scan is included. As a seller, I use the same parmeters.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

But Vargha...

when you see an SGC 20 for sale and the FRONT looks pretty darn good on the scan...

there is a BIG fear about the back looking like crap or missing all of the paper.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Hal -- Like I said, if it has damage, I want to see the back. In your scenario, I would show the back as a seller and want to see the back as a buyer.

I believe that disclosure is the best path. I recently sold an SGC 20 Old Gold Jackie Robinson on eBay. It had a minute tear at the bottom which doesn't show up on a scan. I disclosed it in the listing text.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Scott Mosley

I have a couple of items listed on eBay right now. On some of the auctions I've included a back scan where I felt it makes a difference in either disclosing the condition of the card or if the back displays some type of variation that is important to the auction description.

Where I don't think it makes a difference, I don't include back scans. Call me lazy, cheap or both. (I'd vote for both)

Its certainly possible that I am losing potential buyers this way but I've always found that if I am interested in a card and ask a seller for a scan of the back of the card, I can get one 95% of the time and then decide accordingly on whether or not to bid.

Scott

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Hal,

Absolutely! As a dealer, I must provide what my customers want. I will begin today converting all my listing to include back scans today.

Thanks again.

Charlie

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Posted By: Bill Kasel

.....and then again sometimes it REALLY doesn't matter if you remove something (pencil marks) from a card...poor is poor.



Bill

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

and the front looks perfect!

An unusually clean back adds to the appeal of a card, and a dingey one might help explain a low grade--the more revelation, the better.

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Posted By: Wesley

The back of the card is usually not that important for me. If it is a bit off-centered or stained, I am usually not that concerned for the low to mid grade cards that I buy. So unless it is catastrophic like major paper loss or heavy staining, I usually do not care if there is an additional scan.

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Posted By: Wesley

On the subject of conservators, I am just curious whether paper or tape removal is a service that costs a lot of money. The 1951 Howe certainly is a big enough card for the extra expediture, but I would imagine the service is not cheap and is reserved for only worthwhile cards. Does anyone know the cost of the conservator's services?

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

to make a decision). The guy who re-attached my Caruthers vignette (without hiding the breaK) charged $300 (3 1/2 years ago.


Oh, and here's the back of that Howe! I made it big, so she could see it well before I sent it.


She says "it doesn't appear to presernt any problems."

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Posted By: Brad Green

Fortunately, I haven't been badly burned by not requesting a scan of the back. On one occasion, a seller had a W517 listed on eBay with a picture of the front of the card. I emailed the seller and asked if the back was clean. He said "Yes." So, I bid on the card and won it. When it showed up in my mailbox, I saw that the bottom 1/4 of the back of the card had paper loss. So, I guess the definition of "clean" varies from dealer to dealer. Now I ask specifically if there are any marks, writing, paper loss, etc on the back of the card.

Seeing a scan of the back of the card can also show you that the card is a fake. I can't always tell by just looking at the front of the card whether it is real or not.