NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-09-2021, 05:04 AM
thatguywithadot thatguywithadot is offline
Avery Singh II
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Washington
Posts: 56
Default 1952 Topps Gray Back 3rd Series HELP SOS!

sooo...without understating i have spent the last 24 hours consuming imagery and forum info and deep searching info and have arrived at the doorstep of perplexed! I have ZERO collecting history with this particular set other than one card when i was a wee little child 2 decades ago and only have my historical research before my deep dive into this. I recently picked up these 2 cards in a bargain bin for the intent to use as examples as i have wanted to potentially begin collecting this issue SLOWLY. I however noticed when i got home and pined over them to analyze them closely and not so closely sitting on my desk the backs looked significantly different. So i scrubbed imagery of grays and non grays, lemon article, ted z and arl posts etc. and have zero explanation for the deviant print qualities of these 2 cards from all listings or sales or archived photos for them grays or creams and need some insight here please and thank you. I tried different scan environments and it doesn't change the way they present however the scans do seem to drown the even more blunt naked eye contrasts between these 2 alone much less any online from scans or non scanned photos and so i am here with this sos post to be schooled further and given (hopefully) insight from you og veterans of this complex set issue. The cards do appear to have a different ink mixture i have not been able to match whereas the rest all have consistencies minus the anomalies in lemon article etc. also the marshall has to me a different stock overall even from a side view from the rojek and the front print has an overall extremely yellow rich printing through it if that makes sense whereas the rojek is much "cleaner and brighter" overall but even the rojek doesnt match up to anything i can find. The cards all match up in referance to authenticity and "natural" aging and the wonderful aroma of cards in this era lol along with printing signatures of the half tone process consistent with this time era etc. if this even comes into question. (Looking at you Ted) or anyone lol. Thanks again in advance for any help and insight and feel free to request whatever is needed from me imagery or otherwise within reason to help clarify if this in fact not simple though i am sure it is for the experienced veterans on here.

Apologies for the long winded ramble just rather intrigued and mind boggled on my end after a literal 24 rabbit hole gauntlet analysis of these and the catalogs available of grays and creams in the entire 3rd series run looking for any consistency.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg marshall 174 52 gb (1).jpg (78.2 KB, 160 views)
File Type: jpg marshall 174 52 gb (2).jpg (81.6 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg rojek 52 wb (1).jpg (78.2 KB, 157 views)
File Type: jpg rojek 52 wb (2).jpg (81.7 KB, 160 views)
__________________
"Most truths in life are the result of self fulfilling prophecy in reality."

-Anonymous


Check my store out at: https://www.ebay.com/str/singhprospecting
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-09-2021, 05:04 AM
thatguywithadot thatguywithadot is offline
Avery Singh II
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Washington
Posts: 56
Default

also if this matters or not but under loupe the fiber frays on the cards do have a darker tone to them but there is a darker tone to the marshall period as it is definately a different stock from even the rojek. Also the white borders on the cards are glossed as far as i can tell with 70 year old cards lol
__________________
"Most truths in life are the result of self fulfilling prophecy in reality."

-Anonymous


Check my store out at: https://www.ebay.com/str/singhprospecting
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-09-2021, 05:11 AM
thatguywithadot thatguywithadot is offline
Avery Singh II
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Washington
Posts: 56
Default

also final note from my end before I shut up and wait... this is a cliche story but these cards are from a low 40s woman who inherited her late grandfathers card collection that has cards from 52 up to the early 90s. did not see anymore of these initially but have asked if there are more as she struggles to deal with the collection size and has only shown me smaller bundles at a time to pick apart individually as she does not feel comfy selling the collection. Also located in the albany, NY area if that makes any difference.

Did cross post to the post war and 1950-59 forums. If inappropriate apologies.
__________________
"Most truths in life are the result of self fulfilling prophecy in reality."

-Anonymous


Check my store out at: https://www.ebay.com/str/singhprospecting
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-10-2021, 04:37 AM
thatguywithadot thatguywithadot is offline
Avery Singh II
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Washington
Posts: 56
Default

One thing that put me into this position was the color of the red on the backs and they are inherently different from the creambacks in which to my knowledge they ALL have the same shade of red etc due to the cream stock interaction with the ink mix red hue. My only conclusion has been this is different cardstock that would result in the color variants exhibited and the consistency of shade of color of the red on cream backs but maybe im off base?
__________________
"Most truths in life are the result of self fulfilling prophecy in reality."

-Anonymous


Check my store out at: https://www.ebay.com/str/singhprospecting
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-10-2021, 05:25 AM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 6,902
Default

Neither of these two cards are gray backs.

Here are some hi-res images of real gray backs. You can see that the front borders are normally not white as well.
https://www.comc.com/Cards/Baseball/...d+-155,ot,i100
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.

Last edited by swarmee; 07-10-2021 at 05:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-10-2021, 05:42 AM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,148
Default

Not grays IMO. There are very few grays that have a whiter front, but those arent them. Sorry!
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" ©

Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-10-2021, 05:44 AM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,148
Default

Latest group I came across. All have the grayish front.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" ©

Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-10-2021, 07:57 AM
thatguywithadot thatguywithadot is offline
Avery Singh II
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Washington
Posts: 56
Default

awesome and thanks for the replies guys. I had came to the conclusion they were not the only thing i was and am still interested in learning about and discussing if possible is:

1. Is their a particular reason for why the backs of these cards red ink mix that resulted in their final hue i cannot match up with any "creambacks"?

2. were there different white stocks as to my knowledge the answer so far is no due to it only being purchased and qc manageable due to it only being in 3rd series...

reason i ask that is because the marshall cannot be matched on the back against any cbs yet and i have exhausted ebay 90 day capabilities and any archived back photos i can source along with the front being over yellow saturated ink wise...

Rojek is profoundly different from all the cbs more drastically on the back along with having its own unique mix up of the shade of the red ink on the backside also.

3. if they are cbs i would love to be able to be pointed toward others i could reference and or links to learn about the potential cb differences that exist for posterity.

Again ask only because from my extensive non gray comp of availability of sold or posted and in registry the cbs always look identical in stock so far and the red ink shade that comes out as a result of the interaction of the white stock with the mix.

This is what ultimately led me hear to ask just what are these simply because i do know for a fact with my printing knowledge background for the half tone process etc and studying the only reason for this differential along with an ink mixture deviance from recipe is also not on the same consistent cardstock backside of all cbs regardless of number in 3rd series i have digested thus far.

If not grays then am i just looking at some anomalous variants that exist in neither realm and are the result of a possible last runout of piecing available mats together or just a deviance in creamback consistently that does exist and i have just not been able to see in whats imagery available?

4. I am 100% confident nonetheless that the stock of rojek is not that of a cream and also could not place a gray to it either with exception of a registry reference through 54 to a gray back showcase in which the poster shows that they identified 1 tipton with the dirty front but a white back... not relevant unless you conceive that this is not the same stock of a cb but also not that of what grays are and thus leads me to ask is this a weird combo of gloss front with a different stock from the atypical cb?

sorry for all the questions just am intrinsically curious as to whether you veterans have encountered what is deemed non grays aka creams that happen to also not be on the only cb stock i can find shown identically carbon copied across the 3rd series much less a given card number within?

Also last question but in all the cb digestion i noted miinute details consistent with the stock differentials of white stock that all showed a full bold ink saturation that caused incredible consistency in the fill spots like the nameplate and portrait border and could only find non bleed deep saturation ink fill that ended with spotty less bold in anything that was subsequently labeled grays?

thanks for the patience and insight here gentlemen. Forewarning i am not trying to shoehorn and find validation for mine being a gray or non cb just am enamored with the history of production of this set and the craziness of the first topps run that caused all these anomalies to continue to present mysteries to the community to date. I ended up here due to same conclusion that this was not atypical gray stock so could not figure what it was ultimately because i also know these are not the creamback stock that is displayed everywhere in every card in the series posted consistently without any deviation ive been able to spot in any significant deviation of any kind...
__________________
"Most truths in life are the result of self fulfilling prophecy in reality."

-Anonymous


Check my store out at: https://www.ebay.com/str/singhprospecting
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-10-2021, 08:00 AM
thatguywithadot thatguywithadot is offline
Avery Singh II
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Washington
Posts: 56
Default

also not trying to challenge the opinions but rather find more clarity in my observations ultimately and explanation to gain further knowledge and insight. Would love to at least know i am not crazy in seeing that these are of zero likeness to the creamback consistencies of stock color and ink hue mixes that grace every 3rd series cream i can find currently available to view the backs. for shts and giggles i am going to pull backs of listings in a sec to do a side by side of each to justify why i am saying and asking what i am asking.
__________________
"Most truths in life are the result of self fulfilling prophecy in reality."

-Anonymous


Check my store out at: https://www.ebay.com/str/singhprospecting
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-10-2021, 08:17 AM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 6,902
Default

I think you're going down a rabbit hole that's completely unnecessary for you. But if it for some reason brings you joy, have at it.

There are plenty of other more interesting topics I will choose to participate it, and leave this one for you to puzzle out.
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-10-2021, 08:39 AM
thatguywithadot thatguywithadot is offline
Avery Singh II
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Washington
Posts: 56
Default

LOL copy that boss...

can i ask a short and sweet question and get another awesome answer then hopefully from you guys.

Do all creambacks in the 3rd series appear virtually and practically identical when viewing in all experience?

Ill exit stage left as i continue to understand i am not worthy of investigative talk with this community.

Thanks for the replies thus far and appreciate it greatly.
__________________
"Most truths in life are the result of self fulfilling prophecy in reality."

-Anonymous


Check my store out at: https://www.ebay.com/str/singhprospecting
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-10-2021, 08:49 AM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,148
Default

Yes, and no.

The cream stock is the same, but the reddish tone varies.


There are a few threads here on N54 about gray backs. High doubtful anyone is going to reveal "how to tell in an Ebay scan"

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" ©

Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-10-2021, 09:40 AM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is offline
Al Richter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 8,947
Default

Avery---not sure I am following all your points about the differences you are seeing and pointing out. Ted Z, myself and others have posted cream and gray back examples of certain cards side by side in the 52 Gallery thread and the differences are easier to see that way than with just one or the other in hand or in a scan. As Ted S points out most of the gray backs also have dull drab fronts that normally look much different from the cream fronts

I think with the printing process of that time you will often see shade difference in color on the fronts and backs. Some of the front differences have been highlighted in the Gallery thread.

Here are my cream backs of the two cards you posted


Last edited by ALR-bishop; 07-10-2021 at 09:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-11-2021, 12:51 AM
thatguywithadot thatguywithadot is offline
Avery Singh II
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Washington
Posts: 56
Default

thanks ALR that helped tremendously along with Ted's input so thank you everyone too. I know image consulting isn't finite but i have learned to use baselines like used scanned images with same settings and scanners for comps etc which is what i used. im still intrigued by what i feel in person are definitively different stocks of which i never felt were grays but have only been 2 different designations so i posted title accordingly. The stocks of my 2 are clearly different in person and not the result of dirt or stains etc. I have wondered whether iin person the overall darkness of the Marshall to my rojek are the result of what is a over abundance of yellow in the print of the Marshall saturating the stock but that didnt make sense as the portrait would result in full stock saturations and is unprecedented. Ultimately just really wanted to know if there were any observable differences in cream backs seen out there as i had seen only consistency.

Thanks for the inputs and help as always gentlemen.
__________________
"Most truths in life are the result of self fulfilling prophecy in reality."

-Anonymous


Check my store out at: https://www.ebay.com/str/singhprospecting
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-11-2021, 01:07 AM
thatguywithadot thatguywithadot is offline
Avery Singh II
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Washington
Posts: 56
Default

attached photos to show what led me to ask whether or not there were different cream back stocks used lol hope you can see why i had to ask as i could not and still cant help but notice the different stocks between these 2 3rd series card ha.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20210710_235144_adobespark.jpg (25.2 KB, 89 views)
File Type: jpg 20210710_235154_adobespark.jpg (25.2 KB, 88 views)
__________________
"Most truths in life are the result of self fulfilling prophecy in reality."

-Anonymous


Check my store out at: https://www.ebay.com/str/singhprospecting
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-11-2021, 09:09 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,087
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguywithadot View Post
my answers in red

1. Is their a particular reason for why the backs of these cards red ink mix that resulted in their final hue i cannot match up with any "creambacks"?

a couple reasons. The inks were hand mixed at the time, and could vary. Red is also one of the least colorfast colors.
And
the inks while they appear opaque are slightly translucent, so the color of the underlying stock affects how you see it.


2. Were there different white stocks as to my knowledge the answer so far is no due to it only being purchased and qc manageable due to it only being in 3rd series...

short answer, yes. The stock used was inexpensive and while they generally got lots with consistent quality there was a range that was acceptable for what they paid.
It was more common earlier, but if the fiber slurry in the papermaking machine was a bit too watery, one solution was to throw a couple bales of straw into the macerator to thicken it up. If it got used fairly quickly, you can get sheets of stock with easily visible straw fibers.
So fiber length etc will be mostly consistent, there will usually be outliers.

reason i ask that is because the marshall cannot be matched on the back against any cbs yet and i have exhausted ebay 90 day capabilities and any archived back photos i can source along with the front being over yellow saturated ink wise...

Rojek is profoundly different from all the cbs more drastically on the back along with having its own unique mix up of the shade of the red ink on the backside also.

inking levels could vary along with the color "as mixed"

3. If they are cbs i would love to be able to be pointed toward others i could reference and or links to learn about the potential cb differences that exist for posterity.

Again ask only because from my extensive non gray comp of availability of sold or posted and in registry the cbs always look identical in stock so far and the red ink shade that comes out as a result of the interaction of the white stock with the mix.

This is what ultimately led me hear to ask just what are these simply because i do know for a fact with my printing knowledge background for the half tone process etc and studying the only reason for this differential along with an ink mixture deviance from recipe is also not on the same consistent cardstock backside of all cbs regardless of number in 3rd series i have digested thus far.

If not grays then am i just looking at some anomalous variants that exist in neither realm and are the result of a possible last runout of piecing available mats together or just a deviance in creamback consistently that does exist and i have just not been able to see in whats imagery available?

4. I am 100% confident nonetheless that the stock of rojek is not that of a cream and also could not place a gray to it either with exception of a registry reference through 54 to a gray back showcase in which the poster shows that they identified 1 tipton with the dirty front but a white back... Not relevant unless you conceive that this is not the same stock of a cb but also not that of what grays are and thus leads me to ask is this a weird combo of gloss front with a different stock from the atypical cb?

Sorry for all the questions just am intrinsically curious as to whether you veterans have encountered what is deemed non grays aka creams that happen to also not be on the only cb stock i can find shown identically carbon copied across the 3rd series much less a given card number within?

Also last question but in all the cb digestion i noted miinute details consistent with the stock differentials of white stock that all showed a full bold ink saturation that caused incredible consistency in the fill spots like the nameplate and portrait border and could only find non bleed deep saturation ink fill that ended with spotty less bold in anything that was subsequently labeled grays?

Thanks for the patience and insight here gentlemen. Forewarning i am not trying to shoehorn and find validation for mine being a gray or non cb just am enamored with the history of production of this set and the craziness of the first topps run that caused all these anomalies to continue to present mysteries to the community to date. I ended up here due to same conclusion that this was not atypical gray stock so could not figure what it was ultimately because i also know these are not the creamback stock that is displayed everywhere in every card in the series posted consistently without any deviation ive been able to spot in any significant deviation of any kind...

in general, topps was remarkably consistent from the start considering how much they produced.
That being said, they also were nothing if not predictably inconsistent, as you'd expect a high volume printer of the era to be. Nearly every set has some degree of stock/ink color/glosscoat outliers well into the 1990's and maybe beyond. On some it's entire sets or portions of sets printed on two different stocks. On others, it's just an occasional strange card or small batch.
Some are just difficult..... Many 70's cards have gloss that either yellows or doesn't, or that gets absorbed in to unprinted areas so it's not as glossy there - or not - maybe... Still totally unsure on those.




Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-11-2021, 09:34 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,310
Default

There are a lot of Topps series that use multiple stocks that are vaguely the same color but clearly distinct and remain generally "uncatalogued". 1955 Topps series 1 (or 1 and 2? One of the more interesting ones, it confirms a series cut off that is otherwise unknown, 1-110 come two ways), 1966 Topps (series 6 is beyond obvious, but it runs through the first 4 at least as well), 1969, 1970 have a cream and a white that appears to have nothing to do with toning, etc. I don't believe 1952 series 3 has one off memory that I have noticed, but I will take out my set and check if there may be multiple white/creams.

I only have one gray back, which I got for $2 at a show and didn't notice until I got home it wasn't the white. I like back stock variations, because I like boring variants and master sets, but the price these have gotten too seems to me very excessive for what they are.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-12-2021, 01:22 AM
thatguywithadot thatguywithadot is offline
Avery Singh II
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Washington
Posts: 56
Default

Definately couldnt agree more but find its a by product of the baseline prices of significance attached to the set and in 52 topps case, its the most universally recognized and quite arguably face of sports card collectingbthrough the mantle card and its cover usage for sports publications through the years that have bought an appraisal that doesnt follow economics and maintained it ironically somewhat. That being said also, steve as always i love you insights and some of these things i was aware of but also the intrinsic info into the fiber and mixing process is pure gold. At the end of the day was asking because if these were worth more than the couple bucks i paid for the interest of hard copies to keep for reference id just sell them lol and buy some "worth" truly a couple bucks LOL. I would love to master collect this set as i love to with what i do but im a price reasonability kinda guy so its just a tempting thing for now.
__________________
"Most truths in life are the result of self fulfilling prophecy in reality."

-Anonymous


Check my store out at: https://www.ebay.com/str/singhprospecting
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
1952, 1952 topps, 1952 topps gray back, gray back



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1952 Topps CREAM back vs GRAY back help??? bobbyw8469 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 21 06-26-2020 07:51 AM
1952 topps gray back pricing Brianruns10 Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) 2 11-20-2015 08:05 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:18 AM.


ebay GSB