Authentic or fake?

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Posted By: RA

Fabulous 1913 Print of Old Cleveland Americans

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Posted By: steve f

Fake Premium. Too much white border and raised print areas screams laser printer. I've been burned on similar looking counterfeits.

"The print appears to be in it's original frame and is in pristine condition."

Added; To be safe, use Paypal. This seller isn't going anywhere.

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Posted By: fkw

Even though these premiums are extremely rare, as far as I know all of them should have the same dark border like the smaller T200 cards, not a white border.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

There are two of these Fatima team photos (photos not mechanical prints), the smaller T200 photo cards and the gigantic and ultra rare photo premiums. The premiums are on a dark cardboard mount like a big cabinet card, thus their dark borders. For either type, there is not a pristine example in existance-- so if someone has a pristine example, it's fair to assume its a reprint or restored. I doubt there's an unrestored Fatima premium that grades above VgEx. I'm not aware of anything else original with these Fatima images, which doesn't mean they were never reprinted as a magazine picture.

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Posted By: steve f

Agreed Frank, The black border, if cut-off, should leave a thin (1/16")white edge. Same as the T200.

Too bad, I'm betting some sap is going to be stuck with this imposter for many years to come.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Do you know the size of the print? It's hard to tell if it's real from the picture. If it is real then someone got one heck of a deal at $50... The larger premium (as this one appears to be) is devoid of the Fatima ad on the front. Wow, if it's real.... wow...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It's definitely not one of the premiums. It's a safe guess to say it's a modern reprint. Which would mean the only correct statement in the description is "in original frame."

To be honest, if the seller thought it was vintage, I don't know why he would beleive the frame was original to the item. In part because they don't look like a match made in heaven, and in part because the Fatimas weren't issued with glass and frames. If someone said he had a T206 Miller Higgins in the original frame with glass, you'd say "What?"

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Posted By: RA

Do you know the size of the print? It's hard to tell if it's real from the picture. If it is real then someone got one heck of a deal at $50... The larger premium (as this one appears to be) is devoid of the Fatima ad on the front. Wow, if it's real.... wow...

The seller is quoted as saying that he thought it was 99.9% legit because of where he obtained it (he did not mention where). He said that he would refund money if I found out that it was a repro.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

You have to figure it's a $10 gamble. If it's not real you'll probably be responsible for shipping both ways. If it's real.... wow!

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Posted By: RA

You have to figure it's a $10 gamble. If it's not real you'll probably be responsible for shipping both ways. If it's real.... wow!

Unfortunately or should I say fortunately, I was the under bidder on this item.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If something has eye appeal and looks nice on the wall, it has some financial worth. If you paid $30 for an 'original' photo, enjoyed having it hang on the wall for a couple of years and gotten positve remarks about it from guests, you've gotten $30, maybe more, out of the photo even though it turns out to be a reprint. After all, you pay $$ for the couch, lamp, vase, rug and other furnishings in your home. Paying a few $$ for a reprint photo for your wall seems fair. If not that reprint, you'd have to put something else in the open wall space ... On the other hand if you disliked the image and bought it to flip, then you were out the $30 when you find out it's a reprint.

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Posted By: Clint

Mastro sold 5 of these back in November, 2000 auction. The border around the pictures appear to be about one inch all the way around. They list the photograph as 13" by 21", don't know if the mount is included or not.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I have the Fatima Cleveland premium.

Mine has no white border on the photo part, like that one does. The color of the background behind the standing players stays the same all the way to the edge. Then that color continues around the bottom edges. Then there is the brown cardboard backing that provides a border around the entire photo, it is about 7/8"s of an inch on the top and bottom, 1" on the sides. And I always believed in that 21" x 13" stuff that is in the Standard Catalog. Mine is 20 13/16" by 12 15/16". I'd like for anyone else who has one to post the dimensions. I guess if mine is trimmed I can't send it in to GIA for grading...

That image looks fake. They at least got the part about not having the Fatima ad in the middle.

I'm confident mine is real.

And I have not soaked my T200 premium.

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Posted By: leon

I know there were some Fatima premiums issued that were not the larger T200 Premiums. They came on a newspaper type paper if I remember correctly. They are more scarce than the small T200's but not as scarce as the larger "cards", which are extremely rare. I think the ones I am thinking of might have been issued as an ad premium in a newspaper....This auction could have been for one of those. regards

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Posted By: Zach Rice

I say fake. The paper looks completely wrong. I was always under the impression that the larger premiums were just like their smaller T200 counterparts except larger and mounted on a thicker stock. That would mean that the surface of them would be exremely glossy and like a real photo. The surface of this one appears to be just normal paper. I don't know much about the newspaper Fatima issue but there is currently one on eBay and though it has a great photo, it doesn't appear to begin resemble the one in the auction above.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

My T200 premium is not on glossy paper.

And the image is different from the small T200 team cards. They have an ad in the middle at the bottom of the card, it says Fatima. The big premium cards don't have that.

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Posted By: Zach Rice

Thanks for clearing that up, Frank. I've never owned one so was just speaking from what I had been told. I did, however, know that the images on the larger premiums lacked the Fatima advertisment. I was saying that the images of the players are completely the same.

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Posted By: leon

But I know there were Fatima premiums issued in a paper or on paper stock....that looked like newspaper to me...but were considered premiums...don't make me go through 1000 catalogs

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Posted By: Clint

Here's one of the posters that Leon was talking about.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1913-Fatima-Poster-43-CHICAGO-CUBS-TEAM-RARE_W0QQitemZ280058831189QQihZ018QQcategoryZ86841 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I need to clarify. My T200 is on a think brown cardboard, that is like a photo matt. Stuck on that, in the center, is a thin sheet of photographic paper, that non-glossy photo paper is about 18 7/8s wide and about 11 1/8s inches tall. Joe Jackson is standing on the left, with only manager Birmingham to his right, Joe is 6 3/8s inches tall. Lajoie sits front row far right. That would be as far away from Mr. Birmingham as he could be, the team had been called the Naps, and I think there was a bit of friction between the manager and the old fading star.

That eBay link just above doesn't depict what the Fatima 200s look like. I don't know what that is up there.

Frank.

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Posted By: leon

Thanks....that's it.....

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Posted By: fkw

The Cubs poster (above) is listed on page 156 in the 2007 SCD under "1913-15 Fatima Posters". There are 16 different known (they are numbered, but the numbers are skipped between 6-260).
The Cubs Team is number 43 and high books for $1200. The posters show single players, teams, etc. and have unusual captions like #6 "Frank Chance's New York Americans in Burmuda"