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#1
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
"....A long time passing...." |
#2
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Marc S.
Ted: |
#3
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Chad
I think a lot of hitters have the patient and desire to work a count, etc., Bonds being the most obvious. I think the reason there are no .400 hitters has more to do with increasing quality of the competition. It's not that the players are getting worse, it's that they're getting better and so it's harder to dominate. I don't think it's a coincidence that there hasn't been any .400 hitters since the game integrated and opened itself up to an infusion of foreign talent, not to mention the revolutions in funneling talent to the majors through a Branch Rickey style minor league system. There's just a lot more talent top to bottom now than there used to be. |
#4
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: pete
pitchers of today are weak and cant hang, some are asked "just give me 5 innings and we'll give it to the bullpin" and some cant even do that...some will argue that the game has changed...and it has |
#5
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
Weren't you paying attention to Jay either? All of the .400 hitters are under his imaginary, pointless bell curve. |
#6
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: tbob
hitters in the Golden Age had to deal with blackened balls (they only used a handful each game), spitballs were legal, cut baseballs were prevalent which made the ball do whacky things, bigger strike zones, etc. |
#7
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
GIL |
#8
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: ItsOnlyGil
Well Ted, I can't fault any of that. Actually it mirrors my history and orientation surprisingly well. |
#9
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Anonymous
A few more walks and Tony Gwynn and Rod Carew both would have hit .400 in their best years. Gwynn may have reached 100 walks in 1994 if not for the strike, but Carew had no where near 100 when he hit .388. |
#10
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Darren J. Duet
Baseball has changed, no doubt. How it has changed is multifactorial, trying to credit this change with one factor is futile. We might never again see a .400 hitter in the bigs, just as we may never see a 30-game winner again, not to mention a 40 game winner. |
#11
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: jay behrens
another thing that is lost on most people andnot discussed when talking about .400 hitters is bunts. Look at your .400 hitters. OUtside of Williams and Hornsby, almost all were good to great bunters and got a good portion of their hits from bunts. The one thing that stood out to me about Carew when I watched him as a kid was that he got an afwul lot of hits from bunts. You don't see players trying to bunt for hits anymore. I haven't seen Ichiro play enough to know if he does or not. |
#12
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
GIL |
#13
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Al Crisafulli
The author in question was Stephen Jay Gould, and the theory was a really, really good one. His theory is based in principles of evolution, as Gould was a paleontologist and evolutionary biologist. I just read his writing on this topic this past summer, and it was definitely thought-provoking. |
#14
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
There is no crying, and no paleontology in baseball. |
#15
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Chad
I would agree with that, but at the time everybody was hitting .400, not all the great players were allowed to compete so the depth of talent was diluted. Just imagine baseball in the 60's without Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Bob Gibson, Willie Mac, Orlando Cepeda, Juan Marichal, Frank Robinson, Vada Pinson and on and on. The league just isn't as good and it would be easier for a great player to dominate. They're still great, tho. I think Hans Wagner would be a stud if we could put him in today's game. But he wouldn't be twice as good as everyone else. |
#16
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
Ted: On your list of .400 hitters - who is Clarke? Also Ted: some sources credit Ross Barnes (1876), Tuck Turner (1894), Billy Hamilton (1894), and Hughie Jennings (1896) with batting averages which may qualify for your list. Have you rejected them from consideration? |
#17
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
GIL |
#18
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
For the following analysis, Ted, it does not matter. Shown below is one of the opinions which I am formulating and evaluating. |
#19
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
GIL |
#20
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Anson
I know it's not my job to play moderator (my apologies Leon), but it seems that a few of you guys are carrying chips on your shoulders from other posts. There are some great contributions and opinions, but the personal jabs turn me off from wanting to contriubte. |
#21
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Dan Koteles
couldnt they said it was in their "SOBE"? |
#22
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
Al |
#23
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Al Crisafulli
That's okay, Ted, you don't have to agree with the theory - I was just posting the abridged version because it was a topic on this thread. I subscribe to it because, in my opinion, it's the most compelling theory that I've heard. Someone else might think it's complete hogwash, and that's cool. |
#24
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Ted, I'm not trying to bust your stones but Gwynn batted .394 in '94 (it was the strike shortened season). |
#25
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Lets throw in a baseball card fact regarding the subject - 8 players that batted .400 (on Ted's list) have an N172 card! |
#26
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: RC Mckenzie
Ted, |
#27
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: jay behrens
Carew is the one that hit .388 in 1977. |
#28
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
Judge Dred Fred |
#29
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
Who was bigger - Big Sam, or Big Ed? |
#30
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Ted, |
#31
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: cmoking
I posted this in the "Our Love of Wagner" thread...I'll repost it here. As you see, Gould does look at the 19th century, as well as multiple data points. I'm not going to make his argument for him (I'm not qualified), but will just refer to anyone interested to go read his book. |
#32
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakisc
Judge Dred....Fred |
#33
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
cmoking: I find it difficult to reread something which I feel going in is without merit. This is my loss. I will stop expounding on my lack of knowledge regarding his work. I clearly do not remember much of what I initially read other than the coming away from it with a "this is BS" feeling. The thick head that I am still contends that no matter how many standard deviations, correlation coefficients, linear regression analyses, etc. you throw at me, the facts still remain the facts; and everyone can see them if they look. |
#34
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: cmoking
Hey, your fight is with Stephen Jay Gould, not me. I am just presenting his side of the argument as best as I interpret them in a thread that is relevant. I think readers of this thread would be interested in that post I made if they didn't see the post in the other thread. Since the other thread was on a completely different topic (Our Love of Wagner), while this one is on target, I felt it was meaningful to re-post it here so people can see it. Of course I knew you read the post since you were involved in that conversation, but I didn't post it for either you or me, but for others who are reading this thread. |
#35
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
Sheesh. I guess Id better tone it down. |
#36
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
cmoking |
#37
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: cmoking
I'm not exactly sure what it is you don't understand...and I'm not 100% sure I am interpreting Gould's data correctly, so forgive me if the following sounds like the blind leading the blind Keep in mind too that I'm not 100% convinced about his numbers and I wonder how they would look if it was performed with more data and with other stats (see later in my post). |
#38
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
CMOKING |
#39
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakisc
Jay B |
#40
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
I think that qualification for the batting title is based on the number of plate appearances. Perhaps he meant that with OVER 200 walks that a player might only need to get about 300 AB to qualify to win the batting title (and enough hits in those at bats to hit .400 in the process). |
#41
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: jay behrens
The current requirement for any title is 3.1 plate appearances per game. If Bonds walks 200 times, he only needs 304 ABs to qualify. |
#42
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Peter Thomas
As Ted Z pointed out, Williams at age 39 hit 388 in 1957. He played through sickness for the month of June that year - a month that he hit only 260 and hit 414 for the other 5 months of the year and there were not many leg hits in those legs. He won 6 batting titles in 1941(406), 1942(356), 1947(343), 1948(369), 1957(388)& 1958(328). Personally I think that if he had not lost the five years to the Wars and the plate appearance rule was as it is today, he would have hit 400 twice more and had 12 or 13 batting titles tying or surpassing Cobb's remarkable 12 in 13 years from 1907 to 1919, loosing only to Speaker's 386 in 1916. He would have likely won 2 or 3 during 1943, 1944 and 1945 and probably in 1952 and 1953, when he was fully recovered from the elbow broken in the 50 allstar game, he played in only 43 games but hit 407 with 14 hr and a had a .901 slg %, but spent the other 265 games in Korea. In 1954 and 1955 he had the highest average but not enough ab's but enough plate appearances under current rules. In 1949 he and Kell both had a 343 average, but Kell's was a higher 343. If he had not missed those 5 seasons and half of 1950 I think at the end of the 1960 season he would have had about 700 hr. Would he have played in 1961 to break Ruth's record - I think so. In 1960 he hit 316 with 29 hr in 113 games. A perfect man - no, a charitable man - yes, a brave man - yes, the greatest hitter - I think so. |
#43
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
Thanx Peter for your analysis on Ted's career and what could |
#44
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted
Peter |
#45
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
Pennsylvania Ted: Williams was one of the best hitters ever, everyone knows that. We were lucky enough to be able to watch his career. He was also a heck of a sportsman, patriot and charitable individual. |
#46
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
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#47
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted
Sorry to disappoint you, GIL |
#48
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
Lefties? |
#49
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
GIL |
#50
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Where Have All the .400 Hitters Gone ?
Posted By: identify7
Well Ted, there is also the 350 club for pitchers (which Clemens is about to join) and which boasts of a single southpaw - who we were also lucky enuff to watch. |
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