Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[shagrotn77]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

That's my first thought to. These cards were already high-end.

I'm always skeptical when one of these threads pop up. Mostly because I don't want to believe this is as pervasive as it is. Then I look at the evidence shown, and almost every time it's a no doubter.

It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders.

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.

Sure, there was plenty of trimming and re-coloring going on then by raw card sellers. Hell, I think re-colored 1971 Topps have been around since 1972, LOL! ......But it was almost always sloppy as sh*t, and easy to spot from a mile away.

Sad it's come to this. Those cards were beautiful already.

This!!! I too was a regular at cards shows in the late 80s and early 90s and you NEVER saw high-grade vintage. I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition. Same with a T206 card that was packed in a tight little box with cigarettes. After all, protective holders didn't come out until, what, the 70s or 80s?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition.

1 - Why not, it's their fault.

2 - Kinda? Hahahaha.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

This!!! I too was a regular at cards shows in the late 80s and early 90s and you NEVER saw high-grade vintage. I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition. Same with a T206 card that was packed in a tight little box with cigarettes. After all, protective holders didn't come out until, what, the 70s or 80s?

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

15' cj's are in my opinion one of few vintage sets that are more likely to be found in high grade...due to these reasons you stated.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

15' cj's are in my opinion one of few vintage sets that are more likely to be found in high grade...due to these reasons you stated.

The albums had corner hinges I believe? I saw one in person in the 80's. No need to soak, or just kept them in a box.

[bnorth]

The few of you who care really need to come around to the modern world. This is a great thing overall. We get these super high end white bordered Ty Cobb cards that didn't exist just a couple decades ago. Restoring cards is a great opportunity to make a LOT of cash with little to no education. The AHs get to make more more because of the higher prices on a PSA 8 that used to be a PSA 5.

As far as knowing the names, LOL seriously. When a longtime card doctor got called out on here for selling another member a altered card nobody said shit. People actually blamed PSA because of who the person was. If that isn't proof nobody cares nothing is.

Have a great day and remember it is all for the greater good of the hobby.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

While those of you who know me know where I stand on all this, and I have dealt - first hand - with altered cards in slabs as an auction. I will say in general on the topic of how many more NM tobacco cards there are now then there were in the 80's, that's a bit misleading.

EVERY collectible dealt with the explosion of availability of what were thought to be unicorns in the advent of ebay and internet sales in general. Things like decanters, glassware like Fenton, and even to a degree things like books, stamps and coins suddenly were easily available. If you had to go to shows, flea markets and garage sales to add to your collection you could go crazy trying to find something that, as it turns out, was just scarce locally for some reason (or no real reason at all) The same goes for cards in general and high grade cards specifically.

I started doing shows when I was 14 and I remember in 1986 buying my first Goudey cards because they were the oldest things I had ever seen. On the local show circuit I honestly don't remember seeing ANY tobacco cards. I know I didn't buy my first T206's until Ebay came along.

Again do I think this explains even the majority of the high grade tobacco? No. But telling me something was scarce in the 1980's and easy to find now doesn't strike me as a great argument.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

While those of you who know me know where I stand on all this, and I have dealt - first hand - with altered cards in slabs as an auction. I will say in general on the topic of how many more NM tobacco cards there are now then there were in the 80's, that's a bit misleading.

EVERY collectible dealt with the explosion of availability of what were thought to be unicorns in the advent of ebay and internet sales in general. Things like decanters, glassware like Fenton, and even to a degree things like books, stamps and coins suddenly were easily available. If you had to go to shows, flea markets and garage sales to add to your collection you could go crazy trying to find something that, as it turns out, was just scarce locally for some reason (or no real reason at all) The same goes for cards in general and high grade cards specifically.

I started doing shows when I was 14 and I remember in 1986 buying my first Goudey cards because they were the oldest things I had ever seen. On the local show circuit I honestly don't remember seeing ANY tobacco cards. I know I didn't buy my first T206's until Ebay came along.

Again do I think this explains even the majority of the high grade tobacco? No. But telling me something was scarce in the 1980's and easy to find now doesn't strike me as a great argument.

I respect your opinion and agree with most of what you said.

Yes, the internet created a centralized location to obtain and find things we were unable to before.

Those other types of items you mentioned, didn't become more common. They just became easier to find. Supply began to outstrip demand.

Demand, always outstripped supply, for high grade tobacco/candy/pre-war cards (particularly baseball). The internet era, while helping availability, also accelerated demand. With this demand, more high grade cards were "created".

When I say Hi-grade cards didn't "exist" in the 80's, I was of course guilty of hyperbole. No, this was not supposed to be an absolute statement.

The idea that there are certainly more (lots more) of them out there (which should be a mathematical impossibility), is not strictly anecdotal. It's backed up by literally 1000's (10's, 100's of 1000's ??), that have been exposed, and residing in TPG holders that show us that this card is more respected and higher graded, and with better eye appeal, then it was just a few short years ago.

I understand absolute statements make collectors who believe they are holding onto legitimate high grade cards from the past bristle, and I'm sorry for that. There are always exceptions to the rule.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The few of you who care really need to come around to the modern world. This is a great thing overall. We get these super high end white bordered Ty Cobb cards that didn't exist just a couple decades ago. Restoring cards is a great opportunity to make a LOT of cash with little to no education. The AHs get to make more more because of the higher prices on a PSA 8 that used to be a PSA 5.

Some people buy old houses, fix them up, and resell them for a tidy profit. It's a win for everyone - someone gets to buy and live in a nice house, property values and aesthetic appeal increase in the neighborhood, tax revenues to the city go up on the higher value basis of the house, lots of tradesmen get paid to do the work, and material suppliers make money selling the stuff that goes into the renovation.

The house may still be marketed as "Early Victorian" or whatever, but it certainly isn't in original condition, and has been significantly altered and cleaned to improve its value.

I own a 1930 Model A Ford. Some people collect them in all original condition, others trick them up a bit. Mine for example is mostly original but has a custom made hardwood floor and some non-original parts. Car collectors can look at it and because of their expertise, they know what they are seeing.

I'm just wondering, having read a thousand or more mostly redundant complaints about card doctors, what is the point any more? Altered cards in this hobby are ubiquitous. Card doctors are apparently facing no adverse consequences. I see no lawsuits despite blowout's many, many examples.

I primarily collect game used flannels. Many otherwise nice shirts are out there with alterations. So, I do my homework, I've learned which AHs to trust and which to be very careful with, and which authenticators are good and which aren't (Dave Grob, incidentally, is hands-down my favorite.)

Rather than endless threads with people wringing their hands in angst over altered cards, at what point will it be universally understood that many many cards have been worked on, and that's simply become a major state of the hobby? If altered cards are a problem for someone, they have 3 choices: Learn how to avoid altered cards (knowing they cannot be sure all the time), stop collecting cards, or decide to live with the card hobby as it exists, and not stress about it.

Frankly, I think autographs are far more suspect than cards. With a vintage autograph, every single time, the first question is: Is it real? Generally there is not a definitive answer. Yet, many people collect autographs, accepting that dynamic. Seems to me, card collectors should likewise understand the same risk applies to cards.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Because the owner of the Victorian House and the Model A that have customizations or work done aren't representing them as all original? It's called fraud.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I'm just wondering, having read a thousand or more mostly redundant complaints about card doctors, what is the point any more? Altered cards in this hobby are ubiquitous. Card doctors are apparently facing no adverse consequences. I see no lawsuits despite blowout's many, many examples.

If there was honesty in the sale of these items, as in, all presented as ALTERED and labeled as such, I wouldn't have an issue. However MAIL FRAUD and WIRE FRAUD bother me. As do the damage done to the thousands of cards worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Owners PAY PSA, SGC, BGS, and the others hundreds of millions of dollars annually to ACCURATELY identify and label their cards. The fact that those companies (hysterically referred to as Third Party Graders) are incompetent doesn't make it okay.

It would be the same if they changed the VIN, rolled back the odometer, applied bondo to the body, and sold it as a 100% original single owner through Barrett Jackson. Just because everyone seems to be in on the scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Some people buy old houses...

Among the numerous issues I have with your post, although on a very minimal level I kind of get the point, nobody has ever bought a house that was certified to be in "brand new move in condition" only to walk in and find that the wall to the living room had been sliced off, without complaining about it.

Doug "can't think of a fitting witty nickname" Goodman

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

The albums had corner hinges I believe? I saw one in person in the 80's. No need to soak, or just kept them in a box.

That's all well and good, but the fact is these cards are being trimmed on a wholesale scale...............so they literally did not exist in this "pristine" form in the 80's.

I wonder how many cards have actually been trimmed multiple times.

I see the term "crack & resubmit" thrown around on a regular basis.

Unfortunately "crack & trim & resubmit", has become the norm...........and probably has been for much longer then we care to admit.

Card doctors have been trimming cards since PSA came into existence........................I take it back...........they've been trimming cards since cards came into existence...........but they got really good at it, once PSA gave them a huge financial incentive, to get really good at it.