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If this can be done with such ease on CJ Cards that are over 100 years old imagine what is being done to all the modern cards. Ugh.... this probably isn't even scratching the surface.
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At what point does alteration with cards become acceptable in the way it has with vintage comics? The problem in grading between the two hobbies (at least as I understand it; I don't know a ton about comics besides my lower grade raw collection of vintage MAD magazines...) is that the card hobby is still trying in many cases to put over altered cards as unaltered in numbered, regular slabs. Whereas with comics it's more acceptable for pages to be restored, etc. I get that a trading card is different than a comic in that it's just one piece of ephemera, not multiple pages stapled together. But at some point if this just keeps happening, would it not make sense to treat them the same? I know that "restored" comics go for less than true high grade unaltered, but in our hobby it's kind of the same thing already. A lightly trimmed Mantle card in an A holder that appears NM or better to the naked eye still isn't going to be cheap, if you know what I mean - even if it doesn't sell for the same heights as a truly unaltered PSA 7.
I see both sides of the argument. If we don't complain, "whine" about it, then the skulduggery aspect of this on the card side is unlikely to change. However, it's unlikely to change in reality based on what we have seen over the past 3-5 years anyway, isn't it? So is our only real hangup that we have this deception aspect of grading in our hobby where some other types of collectibles have moved on from that? Me personally, I'm basically too small time to make a difference. I enjoy mid-to lower grade postwar vintage on a budget, for the most part. I've gotten pissed at graders (mostly SGC) lately, but more to do with their defective slabs and yo-yo pricing models. From here on out, I will likely be focusing mainly on lower grade, raw vintage from sellers that I have already grown to trust online. That way I figure both prices and risk of alteration can remain low. I would agree we are in a very odd place in the hobby with this as an issue right now...
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Vintage Cubs. Postwar stars & HOF'ers. |
#3
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and There is only one side to the "argument". Either a card is altered or it is not altered, the opinion of the opinion seller has no bearing on that fact and has been proven time and again to be no better or worse than those of many of us, except that they just get paid more for theirs, even when it's shown to be wrong. And yes Mark17, I'm re-stating my sentiment, much of which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplishing probably nothing. Last edited by doug.goodman; 04-19-2021 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Because I'm a dick |
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I would think we would all like to agree that altered cards in numbered slabs is a bad thing, but my point in saying what you quoted was if in time, if altered or restored as is used in the comic hobby filters over more to cards, will this somehow reduce the rate of altered cards fraudulently getting into numbered slabs? It may not, but that's what I was questioning.
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Vintage Cubs. Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Last edited by jchcollins; 04-20-2021 at 06:21 AM. |
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#6
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It would sicken you over the years how many times I've heard I don't what was done to the card if it's in a holder with a number grade. |
#7
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One of those things I think that is certainly not ideal, but reality.
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Vintage Cubs. Postwar stars & HOF'ers. |
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I posted earlier in this thread but I’ll repeat because it seems to apply here. If the graders are under trained/ uninformed/ incompetent then maybe you could see some changes and improvements made in the grading process. If, however, they are simply corrupt (handing out grades to high volume submitters, etc.) that’s a different story.
Last edited by Arazi4442; 04-20-2021 at 08:58 AM. |
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I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?
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Vintage Cubs. Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Last edited by jchcollins; 04-20-2021 at 11:13 AM. |
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#11
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AND How many people who worship at the altar of the slab would pay for such opinions, and after receiving them, keep the card in the slab? Doug "It's laughable, so I laugh" Goodman Last edited by doug.goodman; 04-20-2021 at 02:41 PM. Reason: Because although it would have been a brilliant pun, it wasn't. |
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-20-2021 at 12:37 PM. |
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Can I still claim it as a brilliant pun? |
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I've often wondered this myself. I don't collect or submit much in the way of modern cards, but it is nevertheless amazing to me that I have never once submitted a well centered, pack fresh, modern card with four sharp corners and no obvious issues that has received a grade higher than a 9.
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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So far, according to a guy keeping score.
An accounting so far: 27 trimmed/altered 1915 Cracker Jacks in SGC holders. All of them graded 8, 8.5 , or 9 except for three. Two cards of Walter Johnson. Three cards of Honus Wagner. Two cards of Christy Mathewson. Two cards of Joe Jackson. One card of Ty Cobb. 15 total members of the Hall of Fame. Total approximate value if sold today: $1.6 million.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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