Jacob deGrom most Ks in first 200 games

[packs]

What do you consider Sparky Lyle to be? I mean, sure, he saved 26 games the year he won the Cy Young, but he also pitched in 72 games total, starting none, and threw 137 innings. Obviously he was being used in a hybrid role and while I can't tell from looking at baseball Reference, I would bet a lot of those saves were of the three inning variety.

Same goes for Mike Marshall. He started zero games, had 21 saves, but he appeared in 106 games and threw over 200 innings the year he won. That's not a middle reliever?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

What do you consider Sparky Lyle to be? I mean, sure, he saved 26 games the year he won the Cy Young, but he also pitched in 72 games total, starting none, and threw 137 innings. Obviously he was being used in a hybrid role and while I can't tell from looking at baseball Reference, I would bet a lot of those saves were of the three inning variety.

Same goes for Mike Marshall. He started zero games, had 21 saves, but he appeared in 106 games and threw over 200 innings the year he won. That's not a middle reliever?

Mike Marshall’s 21 saves led the entire league. The #2 guy had only 15. Lyle was 2nd in the league in saves. It was a different time and relievers were used very differently, but Marshall is pretty clearly more comparable to the closer role, as was Lyle.

[packs]

Closer role in the sense that he got saves and finished games but clearly not solely responsible for doing that. He pitched in over 100 games and threw 200 innings but only recorded 21 saves.

This SABR article has some interesting information on Marshall's season as well. It notes that under modern rules Marshall would have been credited with 30 saves that season, and that he only converted 64 percent of his save opportunities, which would be pretty poor for an out and out closer.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/mike-marshall/

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Closer role in the sense that he got saves and finished games but clearly not solely responsible for doing that. He pitched in over 100 games and threw 200 innings but only recorded 21 saves.

This SABR article has some interesting information on Marshall's season as well. It notes that under modern rules Marshall would have been credited with 30 saves that season, and that he only converted 64 percent of his save opportunities, which would be pretty poor for an out and out closer.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/mike-marshall/

If your argument was that closers did not exist back then, you might have a point. To argue that closers in the current sense did not exist back then, and therefore Marshall and Lyle were middle relievers, is illogical.

[packs]

What I'm saying is that he finished games and got saves but he was clearly not solely a closer. I can't tell how many innings he would pitch or when looking at Baseball Reference but the SABR article illustrates he was not very good at getting saves when he had the opportunity. It seems like he was much better in other capacities, which is what I'm trying to point out. I don't think he won the Cy Young that year because he led the league in saves.

I think he won the Cy Young because of his volume usage, which is not something you associate with closers and you will never see a closer throw 200 innings or appear in 100 plus games. You WILL see a middle relief pitcher appear in a huge number of games and throw a large amount of innings.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

What I'm saying is that he finished games and got saves but he was clearly not solely a closer. I can't tell how many innings he would pitch or when looking at Baseball Reference but the SABR article illustrates he was not very good at getting saves when he had the opportunity. It seems like he was much better in other capacities, which is what I'm trying to point out. I don't think he won the Cy Young that year because he led the league in saves.

I think he won the Cy Young because of his volume usage, which is not something you associate with closers and you will never see a closer throw 200 innings or appear in 100 plus games. You WILL see a middle relief pitcher appear in a huge number of games and throw a large amount of innings.

right i have also argued that 1 inning closers dont below in the HOF except maybe rivera...there are tons of SPs that could of closed ....why does a closer get to the HOF with 1/7th of the pitching a starter gets..


i dont see career pitch hitters go into the HOF even though best at what they do for the position.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right i have also argued that 1 inning closers dont below in the HOF except maybe rivera...there are tons of SPs that could of closed ....why does a closer get to the HOF with 1/7th of the pitching a starter gets..


i dont see career pitch hitters go into the HOF even though best at what they do for the position.

People make this argument, but if a successful closer is just a failed starter, why doesn't EVERY team have a top of the line closer?

Guys who can do the job and do it for an extended period of time are actually pretty rare. Rivera, Hoffman, Wagner, etc.

It's kind of like people who argue against DH's being in the Hall of Fame. The DH has been around longer than I have, and I'm not exactly young. Even closers...if you think about the original "firemen" like Gossage and Fingers, you're talking primes in the late 70's/early 80's 40+ years ago. Even when you started to see more "one-inning" closers was 30+ years ago.

The game evolves...if we're only going to put 300 game winners in the Hall, we're done putting in pitchers. Just like if you're going to put every 400 HR hitter in there, ya gonna have to build a new wing to the hall.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

If your argument was that closers did not exist back then, you might have a point. To argue that closers in the current sense did not exist back then, and therefore Marshall and Lyle were middle relievers, is illogical.

Weren't Lyle and Gossage considered closers AT THE TIME? Or is that an after the fact gloss?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Weren't Lyle and Gossage considered closers AT THE TIME? Or is that an after the fact gloss?

Yes. Hence why I contextualized "in the current sense" as the job is markedly different.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes. Hence why I contextualized "in the current sense" as the job is markedly different.

They just closed a bigger opening, or something like that.

[Snapolit1]

If you look at the body of work DeGrom has put up the last few years, wins aside because the Mets have not supported him to a staggering degree, he is the single most dominant force probably since Koufax. I mean he comes back this year in his second start and nearly throws 6 perfect innings, striking out 12 of 17 batters he faced. And presumably not up to 100% strength. Crazy.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you look at the body of work DeGrom has put up the last few years, wins aside because the Mets have not supported him to a staggering degree, he is the single most dominant force probably since Koufax. I mean he comes back this year in his second start and nearly throws 6 perfect innings, striking out 12 of 17 batters he faced. And presumably not up to 100% strength. Crazy.

it is amazing how few games he has 'won' considering how good he is...

jose fernandez won like 17 of 19 games at home at some point on terrible marlins teams......even last place teams on the days their stud pitcher is pitching are considered playoff teams for that day.

[clydepepper]

Segwaying back to my weighty note on Vogelbach...I identify with both he and Big Sexy as I'm 6-1, 325 myself.

I'm so glad Bartolo hit his Dinger before quit letting pitcher hit...perhaps that was why?



I Can't go to the beach for two reasons:

People gather on my shady side

and

Saying, 'Hurry! He can't breath!' - they try to push me back into the water.



Thank you very much...I'll be here all week...be sure to tip your waitresses.


.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by packs

Closer role in the sense that he got saves and finished games but clearly not solely responsible for doing that. He pitched in over 100 games and threw 200 innings but only recorded 21 saves.

This SABR article has some interesting information on Marshall's season as well. It notes that under modern rules Marshall would have been credited with 30 saves that season, and that he only converted 64 percent of his save opportunities, which would be pretty poor for an out and out closer.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/mike-marshall/

lot easier to blow a 2 or 3 inning save than a one inning save. I'm no mathematician, but probably two to three times easier...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

lot easier to blow a 2 or 3 inning save than a one inning save. I'm no mathematician, but probably two to three times easier...

I bet that isn't true. Among other things, it's more likely YOUR team would score in two innings than in one.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I bet that isn't true. Among other things, it's more likely YOUR team would score in two innings than in one.

Told you I'm no mathematician

[packs]

Some other observations about pitching statistics leading up to a down year in 2021. I'm going to stick to the American League only since Robbie Ray was the object of my discussion:

Strike Out Leaders:
2018: 290 K's Verlander
2019: 326 K's Cole
2021:248 K's Ray
2022: Cole is the current leader with 178 - final TBD

ERA leaders:
2018: 1.89 Snell
2019: 2.50 Cole
2021: 2.84 Ray
2022: Verlander is the current leader at 1.73 - final TBD

ERA+ leaders:
2018: 217 Snell
2019: 185 Cole
2021: 157 Ray
2022: Verlander is the current leader at 224 - final TBD

All this to say that AL pitching took a downturn during 2021. It doesn't prove why, but again, personally, I think that short season had something to do with it. I don't disagree that pitchers are pitching less innings. I think they were pitching with some rust too. Two years removed from the shortened season and quality seems to be improving.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Told you I'm no mathematician

Scott, I think you may be right, because you can blow a save and then get a no decision if you exit when the score is tied, or even blow a save and then get a win. And the odds of a lead change increase as you pitch mor innings. Maybe

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

What do you consider Sparky Lyle to be? I mean, sure, he saved 26 games the year he won the Cy Young, but he also pitched in 72 games total, starting none, and threw 137 innings. Obviously he was being used in a hybrid role and while I can't tell from looking at baseball Reference, I would bet a lot of those saves were of the three inning variety.

Same goes for Mike Marshall. He started zero games, had 21 saves, but he appeared in 106 games and threw over 200 innings the year he won. That's not a middle reliever?

I consider Lyle, like Gossage, a closer in an era when closers often went a couple of innings or occasionally longer. A middle reliever, in my view, is someone brought in with no expectation that he finish the game, typically in the 3rd to 6th inning?