Make believe you're an old fashion tobacco salesman .....

[Potomac Yank]

And you know that Cut Plug means chewing tobacco.

Would YOU, as part of YOUR marketing.

Put a Ty Cobb card saying ...

Ty Cobb
King of the
Smoking
Tobacco
World!

In a Ty Cobb granulated Cut Plug Tin?

[canjond]

Joe I would agree with you per se.... but read the Ty Cobb ads posted on the other thread. This product was marketed as "Ty Cobb Granulated Cut Plug SMOKING TOBACCO."

Now, if I was a tobacco salesman, I would try to market my plug tobacco as BOTH smoking and chewing (more potential buyers). Wouldn't you?

[FUBAR]

This makes an interesting point, with the limited # of Cobb backs, i think it does present itself as a good possibility that those cards were salesman's samples/ promo cards for the brand and were never inserted into the tins.

Myself, in hindsight, id take the cards and quite my job and wait 100 years until i could sell them

[T206DK]

My dead grandfather started smoking at age 11 , according to what I remember my grandmother telling me. I know he rolled his own cigarettes from granulated tobacco, and plug tobacco. From my understanding , tobacco was tobacco to him and his coal mining buddies...it was smoked. The only pre-rolled cigs I have evidence of him smoking are Sweet Caporal's. My grandmother used the empty tins and boxes to keep sewing thread and buttons and things like that in. I think it is plausible to say that The Ty Cobb cards were made for distribution inside the tins, and some were made for enticement purposes or for advertising the "new" brand. Obviously, ATC tried to take advantage of Cobb's status , and name recognition, in order to promote a new brand of tobacco. Perhaps the line on the back of the card " King of the Smoking Tobacco World" was used because more people smoked cigarettes rather than chewed tobacco at that time. It's too bad we may never know the extent to which the Ty Cobb brand was supposed to be marketed. In my opinion , there may have been a nationwide plan to distribute TY Cobb tobacco, but for whatever reason it never saw full fruition. If it had, I think there would be a lot more tins and card examples out there for collectors. If it was a short lived idea that didn't take off, then perhaps some of the theories that store owners and tobbacconists simply threw the tins and the glossy coated cards out when the brand was discontinued. Does anyone think the Ty Cobb brand was only distributed in Georgia ? That may not have been the plan but it could have been the reality of this brand. I think the evidence of advertisments in newspapers around different parts of the country in 1910 blows holes in that theory. Thanks to Ted and Shawn for their work on this intriguing subject !!

[tedzan]

Granulated Cut Plug Smoking tobacco was also very popular in the late 19th Century and throughout the 20th Century
for pipe smokers and for Snuff.


TED Z

[T206DK]

My parents still have pictures of my grandfather rolling cigarettes with cut plug on the kitchen table frmo the 30's. From what my dad told me he learned how to smoke at age 10 when he began working in the coal mines. He was a man of habit apparently and smoked the and rolled tobacco the same way until he died.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Granulated Cut Plug Smoking tobacco was also very popular in the late 19th Century and throughout the 20th Century
for pipe smokers and for Snuff.


TED Z

Some of the Cobb ads use the word "pipe."

[T206DK]

I bet they had ads that appealed to all types of tobacco users. Undoubtedly, there were areas in the country were chewing was more popular than smoking, and areas where pipes were used more frequently.

[D. Broughman]

Have you seen this Cobs ad from 1909. Could this have something to do with Ty Cobb Cigarettes being stopped.

[Potomac Yank]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_tobacco

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by T206DK

I bet they had ads that appealed to all types of tobacco users. Undoubtedly, there were areas in the country were chewing was more popular than smoking, and areas where pipes were used more frequently.

I have not found any advertisements for Ty Cobb tobacco in any newspapers outside of Georgia.

The Macon Telegraph ran several small ad lines like the one's pictured below from Feb 8th - Mar 8th 1910








The Augusta Chronicle ran the below ad every Sunday for four consecutive weeks from Feb 20 - Mar 13. It's the only paper I have found this ad to appear in.




Several newspapers outside the state of Georgia picked up on the story of Cobb having a tobacco named after him and all said the following:




The ads do mention pipe several times and the Augusta Chronicle ad calls it "Granulated Cut Plug Smoking Tobacco."

This article was in the May 10, 1910 Ann Arbor News and tells you why Cobb was King of the Smoking Tobacco World.

[Potomac Yank]

Chewing tobacco (also known as chew or chaw) refers to a form of smokeless tobacco furnished as long strands of whole leaves and consumed by placing a portion of the tobacco between the cheek and gum or teeth and chewing. Unlike dipping tobacco, it isn't ground and must be mechanically crushed with the teeth to release flavour and nicotine. Unwanted juices are then expectorated. Historically, chewing tobacco was the most prevalent form of tobacco use in the United States until it was overtaken by cigarette smoking in the early 20th Century. Tobacco in this form is now largely confined to rural and especially Southern areas of the United States.

*

The question is not whether Cobb smoked or chewed .....

The question is ...

Would YOU, as part of YOUR marketing.

Put a Ty Cobb card saying ...

Ty Cobb
King of the
Smoking
Tobacco
World!

In a Ty Cobb granulated Cut Plug Tin? ... knowing that Cut Plug is chewing tobacco ... NOT smoking tobacco?

[Abravefan11]

No Joe I would not market the tobacco that way but F.R. Penn and Cobb did do that. Everything I have seen from the cards to the ads emphasize smoking the Ty Cobb brand tobacco.

[T206DK]

I think you might be reading too much in to the smoking part of the phrase on the card. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the folks ate ATC would put that on the card regardless of what type of tobacco it was distributed with. Even the ad Tim just posted again basically says that Ty Cobb tobacco is "granulated cut plug smoking tobacco" The fact that some people may have chewed it probably didn't matter a bit to the marketing execs at ATC. Capitalize on the name of a star baseball player from Georgia in order to sell tobacco product. Smoking was becoming fashionable and more popular as Potomacyanks post states. in 1900 over 3.5 billion cigarettes were sold and over 6 billion cigars ....Duke was selling 90% of the cigarettes made at this time. I wonder if ATC had plans for naming any other brands after players ? Obviously, Ty Cobb was not the only tobacco user playing baseball at the time. with the impending break up of ATC, I doubt they did though.

here's some interesting info on the break up of ATC in May of 1911

1911-05-29: SCOTUS: "Trustbusters" break up American Tobacco Co. US Supreme Court dissolves Duke's trust as a monopoly and in violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act (1890). The major companies to emerge are: American Tobacco Co., R.J. Reynolds, Liggett & Myers Tobacco Company (Durham, NC), Lorillard and British-American Tobacco (BAT). RJ Reynolds says, "Now watch me give Buck Duke hell." BAT is listed on the London Stock Exchange.
Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.


P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:
Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands


American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca


R. J. Reynolds received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.

[Potomac Yank]

Does it say:

"granulated cut plug smoking tobacco" on the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tin?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Potomac Yank

Does it say:

"granulated cut plug smoking tobacco" on the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tin?

No the Ty Cobb tin it doesn't include the word smoking.

However if you look at the Penn No.1 tin it says "No Better Smoking Tobacco Can Be Made" and below that "Chews Good Too."

It seems Penn was focused on marketing these two products to smokers first with chewers being a secondary thought.

[T206DK]

that does not mean that it's not the same product mentioned in the ads. where are the other tins or packs then ? where is there any evidence that ATC or someone made two types of Ty Cobb tins or packages ? Like I said in a prior post...if you gave my granfather or any of his old friends a tin of cut plug Ty Cobb tobacco they would not take a big chaw of it. My father said his dad never chewed tobacco at all ? He used to crumble the plugs of tobacco onto the countertop or a tray and would then roll several cigarettes by hand from it. The plugs were not moist like chewing tobacco. My dad used the word crumble quite specifically

[T206DK]

I wonder if a modern day comparison to Ty Cobb tobacco might be something like Copenhagen or Skoal. I chewed Copenhagen sometimes during high school. I remember it was drier and finer grained than other brands of chewing tobacco or snuff. I never saw anyone try to smoke it , but theoretically you could chew the stuff, smoke it , or use it as snuff I guess.

[Abravefan11]

My wife works for a major tobacco company and when they introduce a new product they start with a test market. Usually one or two cities. From there they gather data and if worthy move forward making changes to packaging, advertising, and product. It's a long process and most products never make a national launch.

Tobacco users are extremely brand loyal and getting them to try something new is possible, getting them to change over full time is very difficult.

Based on the advertising I have seen Penn marketed the Cobb tobacco and gave it a go in the Augusta area. If it wasn't going to succeed there with the Cobb name it was probably not going to sell anywhere.

Given we have no evidence of an attempt to sell it outside of Georgia it was a flop.

Whether Cobb pulled out not wanting to be associated with a failing product, or Penn pulled the plug (no pun intended) we may never know.

How the cards factored into the brief production of the product I have no idea.

[T206DK]

Tim , you make a great point about the test markets. It's probably not a stretch to think that ATC would test the Ty Cobb brand out in his home state in order to maximize exposure. Maybe the brand didn't have time to gain a following due to the break up of the ATC monopoly. Why market something if the near future is uncertain...maybe that was the thinking. One thing seems certain, and that is that cigarette consumption was increasing around 1910; there was also a vocal anti-tobacco movement at the time as well. It does seem that ATC was pretty proud to have gotten Ty Cobb's endorsement based on the ads that were posted.

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

No the Ty Cobb tin it doesn't include the word smoking.

However if you look at the Penn No.1 tin it says "No Better Smoking Tobacco Can Be Made" and below that "Chews Good Too."

It seems Penn was focused on marketing these two products to smokers first with chewers being a secondary thought.

*

Let's stay with the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tin.
The predominantly chewing tobacco tin, that during the 1910 period was going through a challenge by the up and coming smokers.
The tin that a few feel were the transporter of the Ty Cobb backs.

Don't you think that the Penn people would have had an ad somewhere in the whole State of Georgia telling folks to pick up a Ty Cobb card with the purchase of a Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tin? ..... even though it's chewing tobacco.

[T206DK]

name recognition in Georgia would have been enough I would think, that and the fact that one ad makes you think Cobb himself approved this "finest tobacco" product. If it were being marketed in other states or nationwide they may have used such an ad promoting a card. I don't think we can ever get inside the heads of the people who thought up this brand and the card itself. We can only use period advertising and the psychology of the times to make a guess as to what was going on.

[Potomac Yank]

Chewing is one of the oldest ways of consuming tobacco leaves. Native Americans in both North and South America chewed the leaves of the plant, frequently mixed with the mineral lime.

The Southern U.S. was distinctive for its production of tobacco, which earned premium prices from around the world. Most farmers grew a little for their own use, or traded with neighbours who grew it. Commercial sales became important in the late 19th century as major tobacco companies rose in the South, becoming one of the largest employers in cities like Durham, NC and Richmond, VA. Southerners dominated the tobacco industry in the United States; even a concern as large as the Helm Tobacco Company, headquartered in New Jersey, was headed by former Confederate officer George Washington Helme. In 1938 R.J. Reynolds marketed eighty-four brands of chewing tobacco, twelve brands of smoking tobacco, and the top-selling Camel brand of cigarettes. Reynolds sold large quantities of chewing tobacco, though that market peaked about 1910.[3]

*

Before, I took my second cold turkey in 1990 ... I use to smoke three packs a day, of the 120mm Long Johns ... to the second puff on the filter ... I am not exaggerating. I had no choice but to stop.
Joe P.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Potomac Yank

Don't you think that the Penn people would have had an ad somewhere in the whole State of Georgia telling folks to pick up a Ty Cobb card with the purchase of a Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tin? ..... even though it's chewing tobacco.

First off we know it wasn't only a chewing tobacco. It was sold as a smoking tobacco that we know could also be chewed.

You would think the Penn folks would have advertised the card if they went through the trouble of making it specifically for this product but as someone said in another thread:

"I think we are trying to impute 2010 knowledge and logic on 1910 baseball cards. They will NEVER match." - Jim VB

The advertising we have seen to date is very limited. Only one real advertisement that was repeated for a month.

That advertisement did say: "Now on the market at 10 cents the package."

So we know it went on sale. It just didn't last and didn't even garner a second advertising run which could have included information about the card insert.

[T206DK]

hmmm, maybe the fact that it didn't last long on the market means that the blend was not appealing. Maybe smokers thought it tasted bad, and there weren't enough chewers of tobacco buying it to garner actual production. just a thought

[Potomac Yank]

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_ite...No=19556#Photo

If the smoking tobacco cards, were all in a chewing tobacco tin, wouldn't they all be stained?

[T206DK]

Joe, you might have to think outside the box , so to speak, on this issue. While I have never heard of or seen a Polar Bear card that didn't have some type of stain on it I'm sure it's possible. I still think the cards with no gloss were inserted into something....whether it was a tin of tobacco or a pack that we have never seen I don't know. The Glossy cards , I believe, were most likely an enticement or advertising tool used to either promote the brand to dealers or entice customers to come back for more. If that's the case, how many free Cobb cards would a smoker have to receive or be offered before they just told the sales clerk " no thanks , I've already got some"
The staining on the Goodwin Auctions card could actually be a water stain of somekind too , in my view. It is brownish, but it doesn't look like a stain made from a card laying on or against tobacco.necessarily.
You can uncover all the historical evidence you would like to share on Chewing of Tobacco, but I have an actual expample of a person who smoked cut plug ( my grandfather). I asked my dad again today if he though his dad ever chewed tobacco , and he laughed at the idea and said definitely " no". So despite the fact that ATC used the terms associated with "chewing" tobacco, I still believe it was smoked in cigarettes and pipes back then.
Maybe folks who bought TY Cobb thought it was crappy to chew and crappy to smoke. Maybe it wasn't the finest tobacco on Earth as they said it was and people just rejected it in the few months it was available.

[teetwoohsix]

I get the feeling that cut plug tobacco back in those times,was used for smoking and chewing,and was probably much different than what we know as "chewing tobacco" today.Dave's Grandfather is a great example of that.Some of the chew that's around today-I cannot see people smoking it!!If you've ever opened a pouch of Red Man Long Cut,I don't see how you could smoke it!!!Maybe dry it out,but I would think it would be unpleasant.Or the grainy Copenhagen?Smoking it?Yuck.

Clayton