The Card Altering Services Saga Continues

[packs]

When I open modern cards I take a microfiber brush to them if there are spots in the gloss. Why not? I don't really consider that altering the card. Especially if all I did was wipe it with something.

I'd draw the line at trimming, erasing marks, re-backing, ironing out creases, etc.

But I do think we would all take advantage of what we can do almost naturally if the opportunity presented itself. Soaking a card for example.

[Rhotchkiss]

This is the back of a Rose Company post card I own. That is double sided tape used to affix the post card to an album; there is paper from the album stuck to the outward side of the tape. I see no reason why I should not be able to remove the tape; that is, I don’t think removing the tape should be considered an alteration. However, I will not remove it bc it’s a rare card and if I tried to slab it after removal, the card may come back an A (it has a numerical grade)

I don’t have an issue with the removal of foreign objects, including cleaning a card, and flipping a corner back is not only acceptable to me, it so obviously fundamental that I don’t know how there is debate on that. Spooning, pressing, or steaming out a crease is, to me, an alteration, although it’s really only one step away from flipping a corner….

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

This is the back of a Rose Company post card I own. That is double sided tape used to affix the post card to an album; there is paper from the album stuck to the outward side of the tape. I see no reason why I should not be able to remove the tape; that is, I don’t think removing the tape should be considered an alteration. However, I will not remove it bc it’s a rare card and if I tried to slab it after removal, the card may come back an A (it has a numerical grade)

I don’t have an issue with the removal of foreign objects, including cleaning a card, and flipping a corner back is not only acceptable to me, it so obviously fundamental that I don’t know how there is debate on that. Spooning, pressing, or steaming out a crease is, to me, an alteration, although it’s really only one step away from flipping a corner….

If you can remove it mechanically I would think you should be OK, if you start using chemicals that may have an unknown future impact on the stock I would be against that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Send it in to SGC and have them do it for you. Not really kidding though.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

Yes

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

I'm not sure how people would possibly know this unless they are the ones who did the work on the card/s in question. I've read multiple reports of people claiming this happens, but every time it's from someone who couldn't possibly know that to be the case. It's always someone who either heard it from someone else, or who just sees a flaw on a card in a holder and reasons "that crease must not have been there when this card was holdered, otherwise, it never would have been given this grade." Anyone making that claim would either have to admit to being the person who made the crease disappear or be a first-hand witness to someone else "improving" the card on their behalf. Otherwise, they don't know what they're talking about because they didn't see what the card looked like before the crease was removed.

I don't believe you can take a card with a large obvious crease and make that crease disappear. As in truly disappear. I've heard it claimed countless times. I've also seen numerous cards where someone thinks they've removed a crease, yet I have no trouble finding it. I know they can make it look better, but truly disappear? A full-blown large crease that breaks the surface and is visible on both sides of the card? I've never seen anyone who can pull that off. Not even Dick Towle. I know people can make light surface wrinkles or light creases that only affect one side of the paper disappear by using either moisture or smashing the hell out of a card, but that's different. And if a card has been smashed, that's detectable and should be caught by the grading companies.

[Johnny630]

I've seen 51 Bowman's turn to the consistency of peanut brittle/hard as a rock...could smell the odor of some kind of chemical applied to the card....I don't know but from judging the dealers other 51's of lesser caliber common cards of which many of them had wax stains on the back. I'm assuming some kind of chemical maybe acetone or mineral spirits could have bee used on the back to get the wax off. I wonder if feel and texture goes into account on vintage card grading by the TPG's.

[troutbum97]

1952 Bowman Mantle "PSA 7.5" .... or "A" ??

Bottom border looks perfect, square & original.

Convince me the top border was not trimmed.

https://goldin.co/item/1952-bowman-1...sa-nm-7-5o94vf

[Seven]

Originally Posted by troutbum97

1952 Bowman Mantle "PSA 7.5" .... or "A" ??

Bottom border looks perfect, square & original.

Convince me the top border was not trimmed.

https://goldin.co/item/1952-bowman-1...sa-nm-7-5o94vf

That's a funky top border, If I ever saw one, but my 52 Bowman in an SGC 1.5 also has a weird top border. I'll put it below.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by troutbum97

1952 Bowman Mantle "PSA 7.5" .... or "A" ??

Bottom border looks perfect, square & original.

Convince me the top border was not trimmed.

https://goldin.co/item/1952-bowman-1...sa-nm-7-5o94vf

Could be trimmed, but could also not be. There's no shortage of factory miscuts from this set.

But that surface... yikes! That's some pretty bad print lines for a 7.5

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by troutbum97

1952 Bowman Mantle "PSA 7.5" .... or "A" ??

Bottom border looks perfect, square & original.

Convince me the top border was not trimmed.

https://goldin.co/item/1952-bowman-1...sa-nm-7-5o94vf

That looks dog-eared as can be, I think it's obvious choice.

As for Seven's 1.5, that looks like natural wear and not a concern. Yes, there are plenty of miscuts in those sets and some seem suspect and some not. If I saw a smoother transition to the corner and less questionable angles, maybe I could write it off. As it sits, nada.

I would never spend that kind of money for something I would think is an A grade, when I just could get a better actual A grade for far, far less.

There's a selection of authentic altered cards in that auction, my question would be is this from the same consigner? Good shot that in submissions, some get through as we all well know and some don't.

And before the lawyers come calling...this is only an opinion, I have not held these cards.

[Section103]

Originally Posted by Seven

I don't want this to be an "old man yells at cloud" post against the grading companies and the people that do this, but damn it is difficult some time.

Along the way, Ive come to realize that sometimes there's a reason old men yell at clouds.

[Exhibitman]

This CDV of HOF fighter John Morrissey came with crud glued to the front. I painstakingly and happily removed the paper and as much of the transparent glue as I could to get to see the whole image. As for grading, who cares...I just want to enjoy my card. If that makes me an evil card doctor, well, sorry.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by troutbum97

1952 Bowman Mantle "PSA 7.5" .... or "A" ??

Bottom border looks perfect, square & original.

Convince me the top border was not trimmed.

https://goldin.co/item/1952-bowman-1...sa-nm-7-5o94vf

top right corner does appear to have that telltale "tit" as is typical with trim jobs......

[JustinD]

I think the descriptors got off on a tangent with some of the replies.

There is no issue with removing a pile of glue or the double sided tape mentioned earlier. No one is fooled and both would be visible damage or torn paper resulting in the appropriate grade of altered. The issue is people hiding alteration. Which is the advertised purpose of this business.

Somehow a jump was made from a defense of alteration by repairing corners using a roller tool to disguise damage for a higher grade. Described and shown by humidifying card stock and pushing out the corners to square them up and rolling out creases.

Then a transference was somehow made to defense of simply not repairing a card or trying to hide something but just flipping a tab back for a visual pleasantry that any 14 year old could spot.

It was a bit like someone arguing to the local sheriff that their request for a tank is kosher because the neighbor has a shotgun. It was an interesting transition…

For clarification I don’t think the flipping over of a corner in your penny sleeves needs any more defense from the crowd.

…now add some glue and pressing with all the other adjunct shamming to intentionally deceive either a grader or a purchaser for profit and now we got a discussion. i enjoy and value what many do, like the Boda threads, to call this out.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

top right corner does appear to have that telltale "tit" as is typical with trim jobs......

I believe the Telltale Tit was written by Edgar Allan Poe.

Brian

[glynparson]

A bowman not being perfectly square is far from evidence of trimming. There are tons of legit funky cuts in bowmans and anyone who actually pays attention to their cards should know this. That being said I have no firm opinion on the mantle. Personally I’d probably pass based on the scans but I would in no way be positive it’s trimmed simply from the one pic/scan.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I believe the Telltale Tit was written by Edgar Allan Poe.

Brian

As was Ears of the Bat.