Where can/do we report "fake autograph" sellers?

[Sean1125]

Well, locally there has been more and more auction houses and craigslist sellers that have massive amounts of forgeries with junk CoA's...

Is there any efficient way to get these guys reported and arrested for knowingly selling fraudulent memorabilia or do we just have to deal with it? I'm really sad to see the amount of fake auto's on CL by one seller, he frames everything to look nice and then puts "reasonable" prices on them... Seems to sell quite a bit.

[Mr. Zipper]

The sad reality is that many of these mass produced forgeries have been driven from eBay, so the criminals look for other distribution channels.

They are criminals -- the money is good, risk of prosecution is very low, and they will be persistent in trying to sell the counterfeits. Craigslist is hopeless and local law enforcement is not going to deal with the small auction houses where this junk crops up.

In my view, the best way to attack it is by educating buyers. Sites like this, Autograph Magazine Live, Chris Williams, have all exposed the junk. If the demand is not there, the criminals will move onto their next scam.

[RichardSimon]

When ebay was in its infancy I was disgusted by what I saw on the autograph side.
Complaints to ebay executives went for naught.
I then visited the NYC Dept of Consumer Affairs to make a report about the situation.
They were interested in what I had to say and opened an investigation.
Under my direction, they made two undercover purchases, from two separate sellers that I had pointed out to them.
The two autographs (both fakes of Christy Mathewson) were then sent to the NYC Police Dept. Crime Lab. Forensic examinations (yes forensic ) were conducted on both items. I submitted authentic exemplars for them to work with.
Two weeks later the forensic report stated that both items were forgeries. The Dept of Consumer Affairs then asked me for a list of other crooked sellers. I submitted a list to them and ebay was contacted. A dozen crooked sellers were then removed by ebay.
If people are willing to do something, and you find the right people in law enforcement, then something can be done about crooked sellers.

[travrosty]

ebay turns a blind eye if you try to report items directly, beter chance of playing pickup sticks with your ,well you know.

the next thing the crooks have turned to is to get their items a abc, xyz certificate, then its good forever, and it wouldnt get pulled by the pope if he ran the online auction houses.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If people are willing to do something, and you find the right people in law enforcement, then something can be done about crooked sellers..

This is perhaps the most frustrating part. I have yet to find anyone who cares. I don't blame the crooks as much as LE. The crooks are being crooks.

So....

If anyone from the: FDLE, FBI, State Attorney, Sheriff's Dept, Consumer Affairs. or even a *reporter* for gosh sakes, wants to help out, please contact me. It hasn't worked out so well the other way around.

[Duluth Eskimo]

This may fall on deaf ears as most are here because of their autograph interests, but if you think police have time to investigate forged autographs when people are constantly robbing and killing people in large cities you need to think again. Every time we put another person on welfare, we take away from government service that is there to protect us. Police departments are losing investigators every year and many crimes are not able to even be investigated due to lack of staffing. Forgers piss me off as much as the next guy and I am a longtime autograph collector, but cut the police a break as they barely have time to fully investigate a serious crime before the next big one happens.

[travrosty]

theft is theft. they can make time. they dont even have to do any investigating. we know who many forgers and crooked sellers are. all they have to do is go bust them. no one is holding their breath.

[travrosty]

.......

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

theft is theft. they can make time. they dont even have to do any investigating. we know who many forgers and crooked sellers are. all they have to do is go bust them. no one is holding their breath.

This is easy to say, but it is a lot harder to build enough evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. In the case of a small auction house selling a bad Mantle auto, who would you arrest and what exactly would you charge them with? My brother is a district attorney and he cringes at the thought.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

In the case of a small auction house selling a bad Mantle auto, who would you arrest and what exactly would you charge them with? My brother is a district attorney and he cringes at the thought.

I don't know. Who do they charge when they are sell fake Gucci bags or Rolex watches? What do they charge when someone is selling fake gold or diamonds? Is some fraud /theft acceptable and some not? Or is it determined by the stature of the complainant?

By some measure, it is more agreeable to get scammed with a fake Coach purse. At least it is still functional as a purse. A forged photo is a photo that has been defaced and is now virtually worthless.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by travrosty

theft is theft. they can make time. they dont even have to do any investigating. we know who many forgers and crooked sellers are. all they have to do is go bust them. no one is holding their breath.

Spoken like a true know it all. You are the same person who has done nothing to learn about the law, but just want to make statements about what they don't do. Any idiot knows that law enforcement, whether it be local, state, or federal do not charge anybody with anything rather the prosecutor decides whether to pursue charges. It is not what you know, it's what you can prove in court. You assume just because "you" say so someone should be convicted of a crime. Kind of like your hatred for third party authentication. Who cares and everyone is sick of hearing you bitch about it, kind of like me and your comments about the law. You may think this is harsh, but you have no idea what you are talking about

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I don't know. Who do they charge when they are sell fake Gucci bags or Rolex watches? What do they charge when someone is selling fake gold or diamonds? Is some fraud /theft acceptable and some not? Or is it determined by the stature of the complainant?

By some measure, it is more agreeable to get scammed with a fake Coach purse. At least it is still functional as a purse. A forged photo is a photo that has been defaced and is now virtually worthless.

The thing is, forgery is a crime, but the sellers of these items are not the forgers. There is usually a longer chain of custody. It is of course illegal to fraudulently sell counterfeit goods, but it is a LOT harder to prove the fact with autographs than it is with other material goods (despite what some here state as gospel fact, most everything thrown around here is clearly opinion only). It is therefore also extremely difficult to prove criminal intent on anybody's part. It sucks, but 99.9% of these cases are not worth a prosecutor's time because the required proof is near impossible to provide.

[travrosty]

they just dont want to make time, because selling forged autographs is seen as a victimless crime to them. its a classy crime so they dont care, its not some guy beating grandma over the head and stealing her pocketbook.

it's not hard to tell who is offering up the forgeries.

[daves_resale_shop]

I frequent small local antique auctions... I would say that at least once a month there will be 5-7 FLA forgeries up for sale... Now there are typically a few bidders in the crowd who know better than to bid, there are a ton who have no clue... Auctions typically sell based on the "as is-no guarantees principal"... To go on with my rant... you typically see forged mantle, williams, and dimmaggio 8x10's fall in the 70-90 range... Some of the people buying simply float the rubbish downstream, others invest in authentication and realize they got stung...

Is it really worth it to the auction houses to make $40 bucks on a lot, only to risk losing that one customer who could potentially give you residual piece week in week out???

Also: Ebay... They have a banned authenticators list, yet I still see items with these LOA's??? I have reported several of these items only to see the auctions close & unsuspecting buyers get hosed...

Just last night there was a "George H. Ruth" cut that went for $383, and a piece (1924 american association scorecard) signed by COBB, GC ALEXANDER, WALTER JOHNSON, HARRY HEILMANN, & AL SIMMONS for $1155... Both items were authenticated by someone on the banned authenticators list and both sold...

This I find to be very discouraging

What is ebay doing to enforce their own rules???

[toyman55]

I think eBay has turned their eyes elsewhere when it comes to losing their profits. Like some of the authentication companies eBay is in business to make money not police those who list. I also see where when an autograph is sold that so many think is fake it is still subjective to it's validity. I have a Roy Campanella autograph I bought on ebay that this site gave a thumbs down to but I think is still real. I do feel as the rest of you that it is wrong for those who are blatantly forging autographs that it is a crime but I would rather have the police protecting us from harm and leaving this site to warn people when possible of fakes.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

I frequent small local antique auctions... I would say that at least once a month there will be 5-7 FLA forgeries up for sale... Now there are typically a few bidders in the crowd who know better than to bid, there are a ton who have no clue... Auctions typically sell based on the "as is-no guarantees principal"... To go on with my rant... you typically see forged mantle, williams, and dimmaggio 8x10's fall in the 70-90 range... Some of the people buying simply float the rubbish downstream, others invest in authentication and realize they got stung...

Is it really worth it to the auction houses to make $40 bucks on a lot, only to risk losing that one customer who could potentially give you residual piece week in week out???

Also: Ebay... They have a banned authenticators list, yet I still see items with these LOA's??? I have reported several of these items only to see the auctions close & unsuspecting buyers get hosed...

Just last night there was a "George H. Ruth" cut that went for $383, and a piece (1924 american association scorecard) signed by COBB, GC ALEXANDER, WALTER JOHNSON, HARRY HEILMANN, & AL SIMMONS for $1155... Both items were authenticated by someone on the banned authenticators list and both sold...

This I find to be very discouraging

What is ebay doing to enforce their own rules???

If an item with a banned COA is reported by a member of the EMR team it will be removed.
Post those items here on Net54.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by toyman55

I think eBay has turned their eyes elsewhere when it comes to losing their profits. Like some of the authentication companies eBay is in business to make money not police those who list. I also see where when an autograph is sold that so many think is fake it is still subjective to it's validity. I have a Roy Campanella autograph I bought on ebay that this site gave a thumbs down to but I think is still real. I do feel as the rest of you that it is wrong for those who are blatantly forging autographs that it is a crime but I would rather have the police protecting us from harm and leaving this site to warn people when possible of fakes.

While I agree that local law enforcement has much bigger fish to fry then interrogating a local auctioneer for selling a forged mickey mantle 8x10, I also believe that it is incumbent upon law enforcement to investigate and stop those people who are forging on a massive scale (or peddling forgeries on a massive scale)... After all its not pennies that we are talking about its millions and millions of dollars... What's the difference between a skilled forger who manufacturers 1000 ruth autograph's sells them at $1000 per and the wall street tycoon who decides to steal $1,000,000 from a client in a ponzi scheme... not much I would say... theft is theft.

As for ebay... I do believe they are in business to make money & not police listers (which they do-just not always effectively), it is also in their best interest to have a sound reputation and protect their buyers... as I mentioned before, if you are in business for the long haul and not a quick buck it doesn't make sense to burn customers and lose future business...

here's one the closed last night... suspect at best and a bargain if real...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261155815188...84.m1436.l2649

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

I frequent small local antique auctions... I would say that at least once a month there will be 5-7 FLA forgeries up for sale... Now there are typically a few bidders in the crowd who know better than to bid, there are a ton who have no clue... Auctions typically sell based on the "as is-no guarantees principal"... To go on with my rant... you typically see forged mantle, williams, and dimmaggio 8x10's fall in the 70-90 range... Some of the people buying simply float the rubbish downstream, others invest in authentication and realize they got stung...

Is it really worth it to the auction houses to make $40 bucks on a lot, only to risk losing that one customer who could potentially give you residual piece week in week out???

Also: Ebay... They have a banned authenticators list, yet I still see items with these LOA's??? I have reported several of these items only to see the auctions close & unsuspecting buyers get hosed...

Just last night there was a "George H. Ruth" cut that went for $383, and a piece (1924 american association scorecard) signed by COBB, GC ALEXANDER, WALTER JOHNSON, HARRY HEILMANN, & AL SIMMONS for $1155... Both items were authenticated by someone on the banned authenticators list and both sold...

This I find to be very discouraging

What is ebay doing to enforce their own rules???

Auctions with COAs on Ebay's Banned COA list will be removed if reported.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

it's not hard to tell who is offering up the forgeries.

For you, maybe, but it's not about "telling," it's about proving before a judge and jury, which is a lot harder than many here seem to want to believe.

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

While I agree that local law enforcement has much bigger fish to fry then interrogating a local auctioneer for selling a forged mickey mantle 8x10, I also believe that it is incumbent upon law enforcement to investigate and stop those people who are forging on a massive scale (or peddling forgeries on a massive scale)... After all its not pennies that we are talking about its millions and millions of dollars... What's the difference between a skilled forger who manufacturers 1000 ruth autograph's sells them at $1000 per and the wall street tycoon who decides to steal $1,000,000 from a client in a ponzi scheme... not much I would say... theft is theft.

Agreed on all points, but what is the first step here, from a practical point of view? Local law enforcement needs actual, tangible, and irrefutible proof of something before taking prosecutorial steps. In these cases, that is very hard to gather.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

For you, maybe, but it's not about "telling," it's about proving before a judge and jury, which is a lot harder than many here seem to want to believe.



Agreed on all points, but what is the first step here, from a practical point of view? Local law enforcement needs actual, tangible, and irrefutible proof of something before taking prosecutorial steps. In these cases, that is very hard to gather.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-ne...d-b-ar-251553/

Law enforcement needs a complaint to investigate. As more than one individual indicated (by the tone of their voice and lack of concern), if I was not "the injured party" there was nothing they could do. When I asked if I had to purchase a forgery in order to make a complaint, I was told by one "That's silly. If you know that is fraudulent, and you purchased it anyway, what would your complaint be?" A Catch-22 that covers either ignorance or laziness.

Yet a pawn shop was able to get 19 agencies involved.

[Mr. Zipper]

Most of these local auction houses are in small towns. So think about the logistics of prosecuting this...

The local sheriff is going to arrest the auctioneer. Then what?

The local prosecutor -- probably a district attorney with a few, if any, ADAS, is going to make a case how? Fly in high priced experts to testify the signatures are bad. Then the defense is going to claim "I didn't know... someone consigned them."

Case over. Auctioneer is acquitted.

And the local DA just spent half of his annual budget flying in experts on a losing case.

Not gonna happen.

Education of buyers, and public shaming of exposed auction houses is the only thing that will work in my opinion.

[RichardSimon]

There have been far more criminals getting away with forging/selling crap then criminals who have been prosecuted or punished in some way.
BUT IT HAS HAPPENED.
We have printed stories here about it.
I did it once as I outlined earlier. I also testified in a criminal case against a store selling crooked forgeries. The store was visited by the curator of the Ted Williams Museum when he was visiting Nassau County, NY. He saw Williams autographs that he knew were forged. He went to the police dept. in Nassau County and they raided the store. I testified against the owner in a criminal pre trial hearing and the owner copped a plea before a trial.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

There have been far more criminals getting away with forging/selling crap then criminals who have been prosecuted or punished in some way.
BUT IT HAS HAPPENED.
We have printed stories here about it.
I did it once as I outlined earlier. I also testified in a criminal case against a store selling crooked forgeries. The store was visited by the curator of the Ted Williams Museum when he was visiting Nassau County, NY. He saw Williams autographs that he knew were forged. He went to the police dept. in Nassau County and they raided the store. I testified against the owner in a criminal pre trial hearing and the owner copped a plea before a trial.

Was that the Danny Dupchek case, Richard?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

There have been far more criminals getting away with forging/selling crap then criminals who have been prosecuted or punished in some way.
BUT IT HAS HAPPENED.
We have printed stories here about it.
I did it once as I outlined earlier. I also testified in a criminal case against a store selling crooked forgeries. The store was visited by the curator of the Ted Williams Museum when he was visiting Nassau County, NY. He saw Williams autographs that he knew were forged. He went to the police dept. in Nassau County and they raided the store. I testified against the owner in a criminal pre trial hearing and the owner copped a plea before a trial.

Interesting. Were the charges for forgery or fraud or...? Did the owner admit signing them himself?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Deertick

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-ne...d-b-ar-251553/

Law enforcement needs a complaint to investigate. As more than one individual indicated (by the tone of their voice and lack of concern), if I was not "the injured party" there was nothing they could do. When I asked if I had to purchase a forgery in order to make a complaint, I was told by one "That's silly. If you know that is fraudulent, and you purchased it anyway, what would your complaint be?" A Catch-22 that covers either ignorance or laziness.

Yet a pawn shop was able to get 19 agencies involved.

This is a great and hopeful story, but it is quite different from the cases of local auction houses discussed here for many reasons. I would be interested to know how much of the prosecution in this case was driven by PSA's cert being forged. That one is an easy one to prove.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Was that the Danny Dupchek case, Richard?

Yes it was Steve. He was a piece of work.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Interesting. Were the charges for forgery or fraud or...? Did the owner admit signing them himself?

I believe the specific charge was for forgery. I don't remember if the owner testified but one of the store employees was also a witness and he said that he saw actual forging taking place in the store.

[Sean1125]

So these guys that go buy stuff from Coaches Corner for $300, mark it up to $500 when if real it would be $2k+ can get off by saying they were ignorant to the fact it was fake because it came with the "cert" rather than them actually being the forger?

Edit to add something (more so in addition to my initial post).

I contact them with the information and websites showing all the info they could ever need to determine real/fake. There are several who have pulled items but I would say 9/10 people I contact obviously know they have fakes yet continue to sell.

[markf31]

Back to the direct question posed in the OP. You can report the dealing and selling of suspected fake and forged autographs to a number of entities.

First I would confront the business who is selling the suspected fakes and forgeries. Ask if they’re aware the autographs are forgeries or possible forgeries. If they disagree with your opinion, ask if they’re willing to stand behind their own claim to the legitimacy of the autographs in question. Now if you yourself are 100% certain they are selling forgeries, and if it’s a local business owner, you can always leverage pressure on the owner yourself. These steps can only be taken if you’re 100% certain, as the business can always come back at you with a libel/slander suite. You can write open letters in your local newspaper about the business or auction house as well.

Steps to report the company/business can include:
You can always start with your local police department
Write a letter to your local District Attorney and ADA
Write a letter/contact your local and state elected officials
Contact local attorneys who specialize in consumer rights
Contact your local NACA office (National Association of Consumer Advocates)
Contact the Better Business Bureau (BBB)
Contact other local consumer protection agencies
Sometimes the business may be part of small business associations, contact these associations as well with your concerns

Most of the above referenced contacts can be utilized if the potention seller if not local to you as well.

Some due diligence, even extreme due diligence, is needed on your part to provide and site clear examples and very concise and specific information when reporting the business in question. In my experience, the more concise your report is, the more detailed and specific your background information is then the more serious that the above mentioned entities will take and investigate your complaint. And don’t shy away from persistence, not by reporting the same set of facts and instances over and over, but showing and proving that the business in question continually over a period of time engages in the selling of forged autographs. And if you can find fellow collectors in your local area who can also vouch for your reports, and are also willing to join the fight with you, and add their names to the complaints, well that only lends more credability to your complaint.

The process isn't always easy, it can be very time consuming, and it can take years before any results are realized. I believe this puts a lot of people off from reporting even the possability of someone selling forgeries. It takes a lot more than simply going to the police station, filling a report, pointing a finger and screaming that someone is possibly selling forged autographs.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Yes it was Steve. He was a piece of work.

Are you aware he moved on to the comic book hobby? He was never charged, but there is a very long line of customers who claim he is a "paper mechanic" who sold (undisclosed) restored high grade comics.

[RichardSimon]

I had heard stories about that.

[billyb]

The problem with law enforcement regarding crimes of forgery over the internet is jurisdiction. That is why no local police departments would handle forgery crimes which transpired over the internet. The Feds are the only law enforcement that will handle crimes when internet is involved, with little exceptions.
In regards to auction houses, and who do you charge, good luck. Intent is what you have to prove when charging anyone for any crime. If you have knowledge that they knew an item was forged or faked, then you got them, otherwise, they get away with the crime, but consistant complaints about fakes and forgeries at certain auction houses or dealers can also build an investigation. It may take longer, but these crooks can be eliminated.

billyb
bill boyd

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If an item with a banned COA is reported by a member of the EMR team it will be removed.
Post those items here on Net54.

What exactly is he EMR Team?

[travrosty]

its a team that can report to ebay and only get items removed that are fake that are not psa or jsa.

if it is a fake and has a psa or jsa sticker, it stays on ebay, like the wife signed sonny liston that has been reported numerous times, by non emr and emr members alike, but it still up, and the oscar bonavena fake autograph with psa authentication also.

so emr is really limited in the number of autographs it can get removed by ebay because there is a protection clause that lets psa and jsa items stay up.

I was indrectly offered to get emr status and declined because of this protectionism. I said I would be happy to help get the fake boxing off of ebay, let's start with the psa and jsa ones. They wanted all the non-authenticated ones reported first. Yeah right. I gave them the psa and jsa fakes first, non-authenticated fakes to come later once those got pulled first. They didn't pull any psa or jsa fake boxing items off of ebay, even with plenty of proof, exemplars. So I didn't report the non-authenticated fakes because why play their game and participate in protectionism? If they want help they can help by pulling ALL the fakes off of ebay, not just certian ones.

Not until all fakes are treated equally will EMR reporting do any good in combating fakes on ebay or anywhere else. i wonder how many psa or jsa consultants or psa and jsa authenticators are emr's themselves?

[daves_resale_shop]

seems like a pretty fishy system if you ask me..

my first report to the emr team:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/jb3sportsout...p2047675.l2562

please get this rubish removed.

Thanks for your explanation Travis,
Dave

Originally Posted by travrosty

its a team that can report to ebay and only get items removed that are fake that are not psa or jsa.

if it is a fake and has a psa or jsa sticker, it stays on ebay, like the wife signed sonny liston that has been reported numerous times, by non emr and emr members alike, but it still up, and the oscar bonavena fake autograph with psa authentication also.

so emr is really limited in the number of autographs it can get removed by ebay because there is a protection clause that lets psa and jsa items stay up.

I was indrectly offered to get emr status and declined because of this protectionism. I said I would be happy to help get the fake boxing off of ebay, let's start with the psa and jsa ones. They wanted all the non-authenticated ones reported first. Yeah right. I gave them the psa and jsa fakes first, non-authenticated fakes to come later once those got pulled first. They didn't pull any psa or jsa fake boxing items off of ebay, even with plenty of proof, exemplars. So I didn't report the non-authenticated fakes because why play their game and participate in protectionism? If they want help they can help by pulling ALL the fakes off of ebay, not just certian ones.

Not until all fakes are treated equally will EMR reporting do any good in combating fakes on ebay or anywhere else. i wonder how many psa or jsa consultants or psa and jsa authenticators are emr's themselves?

[travrosty]

its a very fishy system.

[daves_resale_shop]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Babe-Ruth-Au...item4170520b00

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Babe-Ruth-Au...item4170520b00

Gone!!!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

seems like a pretty fishy system if you ask me..

my first report to the emr team:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/jb3sportsout...p2047675.l2562

please get this rubish removed.

Thanks for your explanation Travis,
Dave

Gone.

[daves_resale_shop]

Thanks Chris!

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Gone.

[daves_resale_shop]

Thanks
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-RARE-BA...item460c56af37

[daves_resale_shop]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Babe-Ruth-Cu...item2a26f0a2d9