How many fake autographs out there?

[homerunhitter]

The point is not someone holding anyone’s hand, the point is that no one gives a rats ass how much “autograph education” or “autograph expertise” someone selling “unauthenticated” stuff in the future has. “Autograph experience” is great for one’s own personal collection, however try to sell it and tell someone that your an expert and the autograph is good according to “you” or according to “your expertise or experience”. ain’t no one got time for the autograph opinions of uncle Elmer, cousin Luke and aunt Thelma! That’s a fact..Jack!

[Hankphenom]

Might as well add one more cliche to the pile: it's all good...

[theshleps]

About 5 years ago I had the majority of my collection slabbed by PSA. I did n't do it for me. I knew the stuff was good as I had been collecting on and off since the 1960's. I did it as I am advancing in years and for the sake of my kids. I requested Bill Corcoran fly out (I was in WA) and we got it done in 3 days. Cost per item was low back then. I had a 95-98% pass rate which Bill said was unprecedented and I learned some on the ones that failed. Should I have waited for my kids to send it to an auction house on my demise and do it? Perhaps. Did it up the value of my collection enough to pay for the slabbing? Probably. It has helped as I acquire some dupes to sell them at times and am upgrading. I don't recommend this to everyone and new purchases I send to JSA for speed and alittle more objectivity for some items that PSA won't pass ever (like post stroke Frank Baker). Also spending many hours/days with Bill and with Jim Stinson I acknowledge they know more than me. I do not want any to go to the random newcomers on staff who I probably know more than them and because I have much high end stuff, I have been able to avoid that situation. I wish ebay etc would crack down on the fraudulent listers and I wish the new TPA authenticators would have to sit by the side of the top guys and mentor for many many months and be quizzed until they can get the vast majority right (they are not awful). Some things I keep raw like my signed rare Jewish players and vintage Japanese HOFers as I do not think the TPAs know much there

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by theshleps

About 5 years ago I had the majority of my collection slabbed by PSA. I did n't do it for me. I knew the stuff was good as I had been collecting on and off since the 1960's. I did it as I am advancing in years and for the sake of my kids. I requested Bill Corcoran fly out (I was in WA) and we got it done in 3 days. Cost per item was low back then. I had a 95-98% pass rate which Bill said was unprecedented and I learned some on the ones that failed. Should I have waited for my kids to send it to an auction house on my demise and do it? Perhaps. Did it up the value of my collection enough to pay for the slabbing? Probably. It has helped as I acquire some dupes to sell them at times and am upgrading. I don't recommend this to everyone and new purchases I send to JSA for speed and alittle more objectivity for some items that PSA won't pass ever (like post stroke Frank Baker). Also spending many hours/days with Bill and with Jim Stinson I acknowledge they know more than me. I do not want any to go to the random newcomers on staff who I probably know more than them and because I have much high end stuff, I have been able to avoid that situation. I wish ebay etc would crack down on the fraudulent listers and I wish the new TPA authenticators would have to sit by the side of the top guys and mentor for many many months and be quizzed until they can get the vast majority right (they are not awful). Some things I keep raw like my signed rare Jewish players and vintage Japanese HOFers as I do not think the TPAs know much there

Looks to me like you did just about everything right throughout your collecting experience. Congratulations!

[homerunhitter]

anyone care to answer the question?


i knew i read it somewhere, i did a google search and this is what pops up on google. below is a quote from the article that I was reading on google.


“The vast majority of Hall Fame autographs are forged,” claims Ron Keurajian, author of the indispensable reference guide, Baseball Hall of Fame Autographs. When it comes to pre-World War II autographs, Keurajian told me that he believes that 90 percent of the Hall of Famers are not real, particularly those of immortals such as Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, Honus Wagner, and Cy Young."


what is your interpretation of this paragraph? (maybe i misunderstood what i read) what do you say? thanks

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

There's no point in replying to you. Several have tried. Each time, you refute their reasoning with answers of your own. Why keep asking questions when you clearly have all the answers? Enough.

[homerunhitter]

relax! i didnt see a response to this particular question, thats why i asked. again, you can chill the !@@$ out bro!

[WhatsNext]

That quote is ridiculous, there's no chance the number is anywhere near that high. Ron Keurajian is, after all, just some random guy trying to sell his book and not an actual expert. No reason to put any stock in a random number you read online.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by WhatsNext

That quote is ridiculous, there's no chance the number is anywhere near that high. Ron Keurajian is, after all, just some random guy trying to sell his book and not an actual expert. No reason to put any stock in a random number you read online.

Thank you very much for your thoughts on this and for your help with this. I truly appreciate it.

[pt7455]

Just personal experience. I have several thousand autographed cards some my father had signed in the 40’s and 50’s and a ton I purchased on eBay etc raw with no COA etc. I’m by no means an autograph expert but I do look at each autograph and make the best determination I can. With that being said over the last 6 months I’ve sent around 400 cards to PSA for authentication and I’ve had a total of 4 come back as questionable where they were not graded by PSA. Maybe I’m just lucky but I think saying 90% of all autographs of HOFers are fake is really high? Again just my opinion. Also the cards I sent in were all HOFers except for Roger Maris and Tony C.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[homerunhitter]

i agree 90% is way too high of an estimate.

[homerunhitter]

makes me want to only collect factory certified pack pulled autographs only! you guys are right....TPAs suck!

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by theshleps

About 5 years ago I had the majority of my collection slabbed by PSA. I did n't do it for me. I knew the stuff was good as I had been collecting on and off since the 1960's. I did it as I am advancing in years and for the sake of my kids. I requested Bill Corcoran fly out (I was in WA) and we got it done in 3 days. Cost per item was low back then. I had a 95-98% pass rate which Bill said was unprecedented and I learned some on the ones that failed. Should I have waited for my kids to send it to an auction house on my demise and do it? Perhaps. Did it up the value of my collection enough to pay for the slabbing? Probably. It has helped as I acquire some dupes to sell them at times and am upgrading. I don't recommend this to everyone and new purchases I send to JSA for speed and alittle more objectivity for some items that PSA won't pass ever (like post stroke Frank Baker). Also spending many hours/days with Bill and with Jim Stinson I acknowledge they know more than me. I do not want any to go to the random newcomers on staff who I probably know more than them and because I have much high end stuff, I have been able to avoid that situation. I wish ebay etc would crack down on the fraudulent listers and I wish the new TPA authenticators would have to sit by the side of the top guys and mentor for many many months and be quizzed until they can get the vast majority right (they are not awful). Some things I keep raw like my signed rare Jewish players and vintage Japanese HOFers as I do not think the TPAs know much there

Hi Mike, to have a one on one with Bill Cocoran, and Jim Stinson, for a few days, is WELL Worth the price of admission! You can't put a price on education. If you think it's expensive, try ignorance.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by pt7455

Just personal experience. I have several thousand autographed cards some my father had signed in the 40’s and 50’s and a ton I purchased on eBay etc raw with no COA etc. I’m by no means an autograph expert but I do look at each autograph and make the best determination I can. With that being said over the last 6 months I’ve sent around 400 cards to PSA for authentication and I’ve had a total of 4 come back as questionable where they were not graded by PSA. Maybe I’m just lucky but I think saying 90% of all autographs of HOFers are fake is really high? Again just my opinion. Also the cards I sent in were all HOFers except for Roger Maris and Tony C.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Patrick, I'm not sure if you are sending while Keating on vacation, but I have gone from a 10-15% fail rate to 40-50% fail rate on autos from multiple sources over the last 2 years. AND some are players who are living or recently deceased, mostly from the 52 topps set. Nippy Jones, Lou Brissie, Bo Kelly to name a few. Each of which I've probably handled a dozen or so copies TTM! I'd rather them err on the side of caution, but it is getting a little silly

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

makes me want to only collect factory certified pack pulled autographs only! you guys are right....TPAs suck!

Some of those topps originals especially 2004 Aaron, Mays etc are forged and there is no way to look up cert #'s etc so beware

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

makes me want to only collect factory certified pack pulled autographs only! you guys are right....TPAs suck!

Originally Posted by theshleps

Some of those topps originals especially 2004 Aaron, Mays etc are forged and there is no way to look up cert #'s etc so beware

Not only are some forged but there is a ring counterfeiting the cards and adding forged autos to them.

I agree with many that say you need to learn autos to collect them.

[pt7455]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Hi Patrick, I'm not sure if you are sending while Keating on vacation, but I have gone from a 10-15% fail rate to 40-50% fail rate on autos from multiple sources over the last 2 years. AND some are players who are living or recently deceased, mostly from the 52 topps set. Nippy Jones, Lou Brissie, Bo Kelly to name a few. Each of which I've probably handled a dozen or so copies TTM! I'd rather them err on the side of caution, but it is getting a little silly

Absolutely understand! Again this is just my personal experience and of course the next batch I send in all could fail. I don’t believe that 90% of all autographs are fakes but of course there are many out there. I did have a 58 Ted Williams signed in front of me in the 80’s that PSA failed I thought that was kind of funny! I do agree I would rather have any grading company fail a card if their not sure. Again just personal experience!
Best
Patrick’s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[homerunhitter]

are there any other players they are counterfeiting besides mays and aaron to look out for? its a shame that people cant just collect without some dickhead ass wipes ruining the hobby by forging and counterfeiting cards/autographs.

[Hankphenom]

To state the obvious, wherever there is money to be made, fraudsters will come in to try to make it. That's a universal principle, so I don't know why it should come as any surprise in this hobby. And I would think that fact might make collectors, especially those who don't have the time or interest to become experts themselves in such a broad collecting universe, to have a fairly profound appreciation for the TPAs, who, at least the big boys, have shown themselves to be pretty darn good over the years. So instead of being in the wild west of several decades ago, an intelligent autograph collector these days has the option, for a relatively small fee compared to the value of these things, of having a serious expert, who has devoted his career to their study, of passing judgement. OK, so anyone with a collection in the thousands, or even hundreds, has stories of TPA error one way or the other--passed bad ones or rejected ones signed in person--but what do you suppose the percentage is of those mistakes compared to the ones they get right. Would you accept that % in one of YOUR employees? I think so. Instead of vilification, maybe they should get a little more love for making this expensive hobby/investment safe to indulge in, knowing there won't be any nasty surprises when it's time for you or your heirs to sell. Just my two cents.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Hi Mike, to have a one on one with Bill Cocoran, and Jim Stinson, for a few days, is WELL Worth the price of admission! You can't put a price on education. If you think it's expensive, try ignorance.

So very well put! I'm thinking that having Bill or Jim in your house to check out your collection is like having Carl Sagan over for a few days to look through your backyard telescope and tell you what HE sees! What an incredible privilege, not to mention that they are such great guys and a pleasure to spend time with under any circumstances.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

To state the obvious, wherever there is money to be made, fraudsters will come in to try to make it. That's a universal principle, so I don't know why it should come as any surprise in this hobby. And I would think that fact might make collectors, especially those who don't have the time or interest to become experts themselves in such a broad collecting universe, to have a fairly profound appreciation for the TPAs, who, at least the big boys, have shown themselves to be pretty darn good over the years. So instead of being in the wild west of several decades ago, an intelligent autograph collector these days has the option, for a relatively small fee compared to the value of these things, of having a serious expert, who has devoted his career to their study, of passing judgement. OK, so anyone with a collection in the thousands, or even hundreds, has stories of TPA error one way or the other--passed bad ones or rejected ones signed in person--but what do you suppose the percentage is of those mistakes compared to the ones they get right. Would you accept that % in one of YOUR employees? I think so. Instead of vilification, maybe they should get a little more love for making this expensive hobby/investment safe to indulge in, knowing there won't be any nasty surprises when it's time for you or your heirs to sell. Just my two cents.

Hank,
very well said and spot on! I agree with you my friend. I was starting to learn toward just collecting signed canceled checks of HOFers. My rational was that signed checks should be as close to an authentic signed piece as one can get then....I started to research it and the more I looked into it, I read somewhere on here that these scammers are now using high dollar laser printers to make/print signed checks that look so real and look so authentic that most people (including TPAs) could not tell the difference. so back to the drawing board! I think now ill just collect factory pack pulled autographs! because as we can see there are forgeries in EVERYTHING we collect but I think a topps certified autograph is likely more authentic than a PSA slabbed autograph. just my 2 cents worth!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Hank,
very well said and spot on! I agree with you my friend. I was starting to learn toward just collecting signed canceled checks of HOFers. My rational was that signed checks should be as close to an authentic signed piece as one can get then....I started to research it and the more I looked into it, I read somewhere on here that these scammers are now using high dollar laser printers to make/print signed checks that look so real and look so authentic that most people (including TPAs) could not tell the difference. so back to the drawing board! I think now ill just collect factory pack pulled autographs! because as we can see there are forgeries in EVERYTHING we collect but I think a topps certified autograph is likely more authentic than a PSA slabbed autograph. just my 2 cents worth!

To each his own, but I'd guess the error rate on PSA or other major TPA autographs to be miniscule, and I mean practically infinitesimal compared to the volume of pieces they look at--I don't know, 1/10,000, 1/100,000, 1/million, you take your own wild guess. And even the few bad ones in a major TPA slab will always be regarded as good by the marketplace. So I'm not sure what makes you so afraid of them, but just imagine if they didn't exist!

[homerunhitter]

hank,
im not afraid one bit. my personal belief is that a topps or upper deck factory certified autograph is much more likely to be authentic than an autograph authenticated by some summer college hire thats 19 years old working for PSA, Beckett or JSA. Ive heard horror stories of how many of the people at these TPAs that are authenticating are like 20-24 years old. just young kids, what do they know about authenticating at that age? at that age they still have skid marks in their underwear, they shouldnt be authenticating nothing! dont get me wrong, im sure TPAs have great authenticators, but those big names im sure arent looking at the majority of the daily work load if what im reading on the internet and seen on message boards is right. but then again, thats just my personal opinion that factory certified autographs would seem to appear to be more authentic than most tpas. but then again like tpas, its just an opinion and you know how the saying goes, opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one! but some stink more than others! (opinions that is!)

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

hank,
im not afraid one bit. my personal belief is that a topps or upper deck factory certified autograph is much more likely to be authentic than an autograph authenticated by some summer college hire thats 19 years old working for PSA, Beckett or JSA. Ive heard horror stories of how many of the people at these TPAs that are authenticating are like 20-24 years old. just young kids, what do they know about authenticating at that age? at that age they still have skid marks in their underwear, they shouldnt be authenticating nothing! dont get me wrong, im sure TPAs have great authenticators, but those big names im sure arent looking at the majority of the daily work load if what im reading on the internet and seen on message boards is right. but then again, thats just my personal opinion that factory certified autographs would seem to appear to be more authentic than most tpas. but then again like tpas, its just an opinion and you know how the saying goes, opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one! but some stink more than others! (opinions that is!)

I'd guess the internal workings of the big TPAs are considerably tighter than you describe, but I don't want to start sounding like a shill for them. Neither should you want to start coming across as a troll against them, though, I wouldn't think. In general, I believe the marketplace has given them pretty good marks. And if you are restricting your collecting to "Topps factory certified"--whatever that is--you are consigning yourself to a much narrower focus than most vintage sports autographs collectors would enjoy. But, as always, to each his own.

[homerunhitter]

Hank,
I don’t have anything wrong or against TPAs, I’m fact, I have a Ton of PSA slabs in my collection (and some Beckett, JSA and SGC) I buy them all the time however I “prefer” factory certified autographs if given the choice between the two. But like you said , I don’t limit or narrow my collecting tastes as there are some cards I like signed that are not Factory certified, so I collect them all, I just “prefer” factory certified items if given the option.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Hank,
I don’t have anything wrong or against TPAs, I’m fact, I have a Ton of PSA slabs in my collection (and some Beckett, JSA and SGC) I buy them all the time however I “prefer” factory certified autographs if given the choice between the two. But like you said , I don’t limit or narrow my collecting tastes as there are some cards I like signed that are not Factory certified, so I collect them all, I just “prefer” factory certified items if given the option.

Cool. Betraying my ignorance here, I know, but what does factory certified mean? Is that a new thing?

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Cool. Betraying my ignorance here, I know, but what does factory certified mean? Is that a new thing?

Hank,
Factory certified means an autograph that you pull from a pack that comes already certified by the manufacturer such as topps, bowman, donruss etc.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Hank,
Factory certified means an autograph that you pull from a pack that comes already certified by the manufacturer such as topps, bowman, donruss etc.

Are these all autographs that the card company has witnessed being signed, is that what the certification is attesting to? And if not, and especially if it includes dead guys, who did the authentication?

[homerunhitter]

that is my understanding of it. I believe they are signed when the player is still alive.

[Kaneen]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Cool. Betraying my ignorance here, I know, but what does factory certified mean? Is that a new thing?

Factory certified, as homerunhitter calls it, are the Certified Autographed cards inserted in packs of new product by the manufacturing companies. (ie. Topps, Panini, and formerly Upper Deck, etc.). These are autographs that the companies claim are personally signed by the player, and personally witnessed by a company rep. They attest to that being the case on the card in the fine print.

This practice has been part of the insert "chase card" phenomenon for many years now. However, in the early days of pack-pulled certified autographed cards there were some lax standards where some companies just mailed the cards directly to the players and trusted them to personally sign them. It only took a couple of situations where some players got a little "help" signing the hundreds/thousands of cards that led to some uncertainty and bad publicity about them. To be fair, in recent times it seems that the companies do keep a much tighter reign on the "witnessed" aspect of the process. So for the most part, modern day "factory certified" autographed cards are "witnessed" and about as iron clad as you get in the autograph hobby.

There have also been examples of known counterfeit "cert cards" where both the card was counterfeited and the autograph forged on expensive cards like Mays and Jeter. So, even with these certified cards one still needs to be aware that while it is a good system, it is not 100% foolproof.

[71buc]

I’m not a big autograph collector. But I’ve always been amazed by experts who profess expertise on multiple players autographs. I have around 150 total and all of those were obtained in person with the exception of my Roberto Clementes and a couple signed game used bats and about half of my 1971 Pirates autographs. Thirty years ago the first Clemente I bought was a Dorsey and didn’t realize it for many years. When I was informed that it was a Dorsey by a Clemente expert I learned everything I could about both Dorsey and Clemente autographs. While working at the Clemente Museum I’ve been exposed to 100s of Clemente. Now I have minimal fear of buying a free range Clemente as long as its an example signed in the late 60s to early 70s. However I will still occasionally ask others for their opinions if I’m not absolutely certain. I don’t know enough to risk buying his earlier or rushed signatures. I can attest that there are many Clemente forgeries out there. I’ve even seen a couple of Dorseys in slabs as well.

A local card store reached out to me early last year and asked me to look at 5 4X6 autographed team issued Clemente publicity photos that they were consigning. I told them only one of them was good. The owner claimed he got all of them in person as a child. He was indignant and asked me how I could be so sure of myself. They all wanted to know what made me an “expert”. I told them I wasn’t claiming to be an expert. I reminded them that they called me for my free opinion and that’s all I was giving them. I then told them I was confident enough to offer 3K for the one that was good. It was a gorgeous example. They declined my offer and decided to use JSA. JSA told them exactly the same thing I did 4 Dorseys and one Roberto. In the end I purchased the real one. I also offered to buy the fakes to have reference material in my collection. They wanted $300 for them I passed. I later saw that they sold them with the disclaimer that they couldn’t verify authenticity. They didn’t volunteer that JSA had rejected them. They knew they weren’t real and should have simply removed them from circulation. Since then I’ve seen two of them listed on eBay for several thousand. Dealers like that hurt the hobby almost as bad as forgers.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Kaneen

Factory certified, as homerunhitter calls it, are the Certified Autographed cards inserted in packs of new product by the manufacturing companies. (ie. Topps, Panini, and formerly Upper Deck, etc.). These are autographs that the companies claim are personally signed by the player, and personally witnessed by a company rep. They attest to that being the case on the card in the fine print. This practice has been part of the insert "chase card" phenomenon for many years now. However, in the early days of pack-pulled certified autographed cards there were some lax standards where some companies just mailed the cards directly to the players and trusted them to personally sign them. It only took a couple of situations where some players got a little "help" signing the hundreds/thousands of cards that led to some uncertainty and bad publicity about them. To be fair, in recent times it seems that the companies do keep a much tighter reign on the "witnessed" aspect of the process. So for the most part, modern day "factory certified" autographed cards are "witnessed" and about as iron clad as you get in the autograph hobby. There have also been examples of known counterfeit "cert cards" where both the card was counterfeited and the autograph forged on expensive cards like Mays and Jeter. So, even with these certified cards one still needs to be aware that while it is a good system, it is not 100% foolproof.

Thanks, Kevin.

[Hankphenom]

One last question: If they're pulled from packs, in what form are they certified?

[Kaneen]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

One last question: If they're pulled from packs, in what form are they certified?

The certified autographed cards have special markings (indented seals, gold foil markings, etc.) or completely different printed backs that say something like "Congratulations! You have just received a personally autographed card of (insert player name)..."

The certified autographed cards are produced for the sole purpose of being signed and inserted in packs, sometimes limited numbered editions with gold foil stamping. They are not just regular base cards with an autograph on them. One set that I collect has the regular base cards with a white border with blue trim, while the certified pack pulled autographed versions have a white border with gold trim. It is done differently by different companies, but it is always marked in a way that is obvious that it is a pack pulled factory certified insert card.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Kaneen

The certified autographed cards have special markings (indented seals, gold foil markings, etc.) or completely different printed backs that say something like "Congratulations! You have just received a personally autographed card of (insert player name)..."

The certified autographed cards are produced for the sole purpose of being signed and inserted in packs, sometimes limited numbered editions with gold foil stamping. They are not just regular base cards with an autograph on them. One set that I collect has the regular base cards with a white border with blue trim, while the certified pack pulled autographed versions have a white border with gold trim. It is done differently by different companies, but it is always marked in a way that is obvious that it is a pack pulled factory certified insert card.

Cool. Thanks!

[homerunhitter]

Any new thoughts on this?

[awz50]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Any new thoughts on this?

People will tell you the same thing, that has been said before do your research and verify it will other collectors. The big authenticators do a decent job but things slip through the cracks. It seems like you want an answer that is black and white, when in fact there is not one

[sreader3]

At risk of creating more unnecessary controversy I will say that I think Beckett autograph authentication makes a fair number more mistakes than PSA/DNA. Neither is perfect.

[Deertick]

Anyone think it has gotten better since?

https://www.si.com/longform/true-cri...lia/index.html

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

To each his own, but I'd guess the error rate on PSA or other major TPA autographs to be miniscule, and I mean practically infinitesimal compared to the volume of pieces they look at--I don't know, 1/10,000, 1/100,000, 1/million, you take your own wild guess. And even the few bad ones in a major TPA slab will always be regarded as good by the marketplace. So I'm not sure what makes you so afraid of them, but just imagine if they didn't exist!

This is a ridiculous statement. One in 10,000 to one in a million? Are you kidding me. They make mistakes on every large order that goes to them. You’re making these statements because you’re friends with Kevin Keating. You have said so in the past many times. They are failing items at a ridiculous rate in the past couple of years. Anyone who is doing business sees this every order.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This is a ridiculous statement. One in 10,000 to one in a million? Are you kidding me. They make mistakes on every large order that goes to them. You’re making these statements because you’re friends with Kevin Keating. You have said so in the past many times. They are failing items at a ridiculous rate in the past couple of years. Anyone who is doing business sees this every order.

Yes, I've made no secret of my friendship with Kevin and admiration for his skills, and perhaps I've exaggerated the big-TPA error rate, but what would you put it at? To say there's errors in every large order seems an exaggeration to me, and how do you know? To say that, you must be better than they are, which I seriously doubt. My point is that their error rate is probably about the same as yours at whatever line of work you're in, so stop whining and admit that, overall, the advent of the respected TPAs has been a major step forward for the autograph hobby.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I never said Kevin was not knowledgeable or very skilled in his work, I said the error rate. They kick stuff all the time that is good. One example, they are currently kicking all kinds of Kirby Puckett items because they learned a bunch of stuff that wasn’t good made it through the process. So is it right to kick back multiple items because they were burnt in the past? No, it’s not. There are many many other examples just like this.

No one here ever said Bill or Kevin weren’t great at what they do, they said they are taking peoples money and kicking back items that are good. Apparently that business model is ok with you.

Every person who submits larger quantities knows this. They don’t care because they (PSA) are keeping peoples money and they don’t allow push back. Just like you don’t allow push back.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Just like you don’t allow push back.

But I don't mind pushback at all, I've been a pusherback all my life. It's just that I am old enough to remember the "wild west" days of the hobby, and I don't think anybody wants to go back to that. You used the word "ridiculous" twice in pushing back on my support of the TPAs, so I guess I'm pushing back on you a bit for that, but you didn't answer my question: of the total universe of submissions to PSA, as an example, what % do you think they get wrong? And wouldn't you rather they be too strict in their opinions--which can't be great for their business other than solidifying their reputation--than too lax? I really don't want to come off as a shill for the TPAs, but setting up at shows with Kevin for a dozen years taught me a lot about the autograph hobby, and I just think that it's better now with them than it was before without them. That shouldn't exempt them from criticism, however, and I shouldn't have called that whining, that was wrong on my part. Everybody's feet should be held to the fire in whatever they do, it's a better world that way.

[WhatsNext]

I think that on balance, rejecting an authentic signature is a much "better" mistake to make than passing a forgery. Of course, no company is going to get everything 100% right, but I generally believe JSA, PSA, and Beckett rarely pass inauthentic signatures, and if that means they end up kicking a few more authentic examples, that's a trade-off I'm perfectly fine with.

[shelly]

I have not read everything in this thread. So if what I am about to write has all ready been written so be it.
If you are talking about autographs that you find in packs may I remind you of the $80.000 upper deck card that had two forged signitures.
That card was authenticated by a so called expert.

There are only two people that I would trust when it come to vintage autographs. Jim Stenson and Rirchard Simon. As far as to autographs of today I would not trust anyone because of how poorly they sign there names, unless it is from a company that has these people under contract and some times I am not even sure about that.

[homerunhitter]

id rather have and trust a pack pulled factory certified autograph over a psa certified autograph anyday!

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

id rather have and trust a pack pulled factory certified autograph over a psa certified autograph anyday!

Maybe not

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[homerunhitter]

clarification..i meant on card topps autographs!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by shelly

There are only two people that I would trust when it come to vintage autographs. Jim Stenson and Rirchard Simon. As far as to autographs of today I would not trust anyone because of how poorly they sign there names, unless it is from a company that has these people under contract and some times I am not even sure about that.

It's Jim STINSON and RICHARD Simon, and yes, they are at the very top by reputation with vintage autographs. There is another handful of experts in that same group, but I'm not going to name names here. How anybody could really authenticate today's squiggles and scratches is beyond me, I would surely want to have witnessed it or have some truly ironclad provenance, but I'm not sure what that might be. And I'd be surprised if the autograph hobby doesn't take a hit at some point because of this and also because the newer sigs are just so darned unattractive and illegible.