E90-1s have plate scratches too!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Ted,
I know your post is directed at Ed but I would like to respond too.

No offense but I don't think you understand the plate scratches. I would be happy to bring some plate scratch cards and meet with you sometime in
the future and have a discussion.

I'm not sure how they occurred but I think it probably happened in the moving
of them in the printing process.

Pat

I fully understand what you refer to as "plate scratches". I've followed your posts regarding your Piedmont 150 analysis.
Furthermore, when I was a teenager, I worked as an apprentice in a print shop and I am familiar with printing practices.

I respect all the time & effort you have put into your T206 project. However, we are now talking about E90-1 cards. E90
cards were printed by a Lithographic firm in Philadelphia (1908-1910). The T206's were printed by American Litho (NYC)
and it's my understanding that state-of-the-art rotary off-set presses were used to print these cards.

I took the trouble of scanning Ebay's current listing of E90-1 cards. There are 178 unique E90-1 cards listed whose backs
are visible in this listing. Only 7 of these cards exhibit "ink streaks"....resulting in 3.9 %.

The grand total (of this group and the group noted in Post #36) is 386 samples. Only 14 of these cards have "ink streaks"
resulting in a mere 3.6 %.

I repeat: such a limited sampling (plus the varying characteristics of the "ink streaks") of these E90-1 cards certainly does
not make for a reliable (or scientific) method for attempting to determine valid sheet layout, or series structure ?


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

I fully understand what you refer to as "plate scratches". I've followed your posts regarding your Piedmont 150 analysis.
Furthermore, when I was a teenager, I worked as an apprentice in a print shop and I am familiar with printing practices.

I respect all the time & effort you have put into your T206 project. However, we are now talking about E90-1 cards. E90
cards were printed by a Lithographic firm in Philadelphia (1908-1910). The T206's were printed by American Litho (NYC)
and it's my understanding that state-of-the-art rotary off-set presses were used to print these cards.

I took the trouble of scanning Ebay's current listing of E90-1 cards. There are 178 unique E90-1 cards listed whose backs
are visible in this listing. Only 7 of these cards exhibit "ink streaks"....resulting in 3.9 %.

The grand total (of this group and the group noted in Post #36) is 386 samples. Only 14 of these cards have "ink streaks"
resulting in a mere 3.6 %.

I repeat: such a limited sampling (plus the varying characteristics of the "ink streaks") of these E90-1 cards certainly does
not make for a reliable (or scientific) method for attempting to determine valid sheet layout, or series structure ?


TED Z
.

Ted,
I don't see how where they were printed makes a difference. A scratch is a
scratch and where they were printed shouldn't factor into it.

Neither should the %. If enough scratches are found to connect them and
come up with a sheet or partial sheet layout it doesn't matter how many
cards you have to look through to find them. I have saved scans from quite
a few that are listed on ebay and there are a lot more than the seven you found.

I didn't want to go back and look through all of them but I did look through
a few pages and found twelve but I could only attach nine links.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...sAAOSw4shX60qP

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-G...sAAOSwx2dYDj3P

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...8AAOSw9IpX1Jsl
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Amer...IAAMXQXZZReKdd

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...sAAOSwnDZT99lV
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...gAAOSwKrxUY311
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...8AAOSwTA9X61yw

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...AAAOSwu4BVoUuB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-E90-...YAAOSwqfNXj~QP
I also don't follow what you mean by varying ink streaks, they were caused
by something scratching the surface it's not like someone drew a straight line
through the back plate.

[Leon]

It seems the only reason where something is mfg'd would be important will be if we can find the press that had the scratch or are able to put a sheet together by locating it? But generally I would agree that where a card is produced doesn't really help with where they were located on a sheet. Those scratches might help though....

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted,
I don't see how where they were printed makes a difference. A scratch is a
scratch and where they were printed shouldn't factor into it.

Neither should the %. If enough scratches are found to connect them and
come up with a sheet or partial sheet layout it doesn't matter how many
cards you have to look through to find them. I have saved scans from quite
a few that are listed on ebay and there are a lot more than the seven you found.

I didn't want to go back and look through all of them but I did look through
a few pages and found twelve but I could only attach nine links.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...sAAOSw4shX60qP

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-G...sAAOSwx2dYDj3P

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...8AAOSw9IpX1Jsl
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Amer...IAAMXQXZZReKdd

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...sAAOSwnDZT99lV
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...gAAOSwKrxUY311
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...8AAOSwTA9X61yw

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...AAAOSwu4BVoUuB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-E90-...YAAOSwqfNXj~QP
I also don't follow what you mean by varying ink streaks, they were caused
by something scratching the surface it's not like someone drew a straight line
through the back plate.

[tedzan]

Hi Ed

Sorry, that I interjected my opinion. After all the years we have known each other, we have had some meaningful discussions on this Candy set.
But, my post appears to be causing problems; and, possibly alienating our friendship.

But consider this....Including your data (125/4 "scratches") we have a total of 511 samples of E90-1 cards with only 18 examples of "ink streaks".
This results in a mere 3.5 % with this anomaly from this large sample of cards. And it's considerably less percentage than the T206 Piedmont 150
data that Pat has analyzed.
Therefore, the remark by some here...."what difference does it make" what printer (or machinery) was used to produce these E90-1 cards, is very
naïve (if not uninformed).

Anyway, I hope as you do that this survey may provide us some ideas of how the various series of this set were printed (1908 - Summer of 1910).

This is a question you and I and others on this forum have discussed ever since I posted this E90-1 thread in March 2006......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=89941


Take care......I am choosing to refrain from any further inputs to this thread.

TED Z
.

[edhans]

Ted,
Please understand that your posts in this thread in no way diminish my esteem for you as a collector or a friend. I apoolgize if my reply to you was interpreted in that way. Your experience and knowledge are a great resource in the hobby, and will be for many years to come. I invite you to keep an open mind as we progress in this venture and, of course, to add anything you feel might add to our knowledge. As i said previously, I have no idea if we'll be able to reconstruct an entire sheet or sheets, but we already have discovered several interesting and heretofore unknown facts about the configuration of the sheets and thererby a few clues as to the distribution of the set.

Warmest Regards,

Ed

[Pat R]

Ed, Here's another three subject match.

Crawford Matches Knight & Roy Thomas.jpgKnight.jpg
Thomas ,Roy.jpg

Fred Mitchell matches Joss Pitching.
Mitchell, Fred.jpg
Joss 2 B Back - Copy.jpg

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tedzan

But consider this....Including your data (125/4 "scratches") we have a total of 511 samples of E90-1 cards with only 18 examples of "ink streaks".
This results in a mere 3.5 % with this anomaly from this large sample of cards. And it's considerably less percentage than the T206 Piedmont 150
data that Pat has analyzed.
Therefore, the remark by some here...."what difference does it make" what printer (or machinery) was used to produce these E90-1 cards, is very
naïve (if not uninformed).

Anyway, I hope as you do that this survey may provide us some ideas of how the various series of this set were printed (1908 - Summer of 1910).

This is a question you and I and others on this forum have discussed ever since I posted this E90-1 thread in March 2006......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=89941


Take care......I am choosing to refrain from any further inputs to this thread.

TED Z
.

Ted makes some interesting points, some more interesting than others.

The percentage of cards showing marks from plate scratches or streaks is currently fairly low. This could be from a few things. It could be that collectively we've only looked at/for them for a brief time. Pat has pointed out a couple of the other limiting things. In comparison to the P150's there are fewer scratches so fewer cards from a sheet will be affected. And when the scratch happened will have a lot of bearing on the percentage found. I think it's simply too early to draw much of a conclusion from that percentage.


The question of what sort of press produced the set is a good one.

If they were produced on a then fairly cutting edge rotary offset press that used metal plates it opens up a lot of complications. The plates at the time were expensive and not simple to produce. http://sites.tech.uh.edu/digitalmedi...y_of_Litho.pdf
I don't see a mention of them being saved for reuse, but it's possible they may have been as it was a fairly common thing with the stones. (Some were saved, others were resurfaced for reuse)

If the plates were saved, they would be just as likely to be damaged as a stone. That damage might be different, as different accidents happen to large, inflexible heavy things than happen to light flexible things that happen to also be large.
Diagonal streaks aren't all that likely on a rotary press. And consistent diagonal streaks are even less likely. Streaks parallel to the direction the sheet travels are likely, but these marks are not parallel to either a sheet run sideways or vertically. And a diagonal layout for rectangular objects would be really odd.
Rotary offset plates can get scratched, just as stones can. I have a 1981 Fleer card with a nice red line from a plate scratch, and I'm very sure a rotary offset press was used.

So to some extent the type of press used and how the printer handled the plates does matter. If plates weren't typically saved, consistent diagonal marks on series separated by time would most likely indicate a stone rather than plates.
Another possibility would be the printing of various groups of fronts in different quantities either at the same time, or consecutively - group 1 Monday and Tuesday, group 2 Wednesday........with the backs printed last. I think that's unlikely, especially as one group typically shows flaws from dry or worn plates. (Using plates to include stones for simplicity)


Even if the marks are indeed streaks, they're consistent enough to give us an idea of what cards were next to each other.

There are fairly consistent streaks on more modern cards, once the rate the sheets were fed at got high enough static electricity became a problem, and the solution was dragging a string much like tinsel along the sheets being fed into the press. With proper drying in between colors, they shouldn't happen, but on a lot of 50's era cards they're common.
I don't think the presses of the era, even rotary ones had a high enough rate. But some part of the press being loose might cause a streak.
Personally I believe these are too consistent to be anything other than plate damage. Scratches most likely, but if it was a rotary press they could also be cracks, which would explain why they're less common.

All in all, they're worth studying.


Steve B

[Pat R]

Hi Ed,
I haven't posted all of the scans that I have yet but here is a list of the scratches from all the input so far. There are 60 different scratches on
49 different subjects.

Bailey
Bender
Bresnahan - matches Clement
Chance
Chase 2
Clarke (Philadelphia) - matches Grant and Hartzell (Batting)
Clement - matches Bresnahan
Cobb - 2 (two different scratches)
Collins - matches Donavan
Crawford - matches Knight and Roy Thomas
Criger
Demmitt 2 - matches Overall
Donavan - matches Collins
Engle 2 - matches Tenney
Gibson (Front View)
Grant - matches Clarke (Philadelphia) and Hartzell (Batting)
Gray - matches McInnes
Hartzell (Batting) - matches Clarke (Philadelphia) and Grant
Howell (Follow Through)
Howell (Wind-up)
Jennings
Joss (Portrait) 2
Joss (Pitching) 2
Keeler (Pink Background)
Knight - matches Crawford and Roy Thomas
Krause
Lajoie - matches Marquard
Lumley - matches Mathewson
Marquard - matches Lajoie
Mathewson 3 - Matches Lumley
McInnes - matches Gray
McQuillan
Miller
Mitchell, Fred
Mullin
Phelps 2 - matches Stone (Left Hand)
Schlitzer
Stone (Left Hand) - matches Phelps
Stone (No Hands) 2
Summers
Sweeney (New York)
Tannehill, Jesse
Tannehill, Lee
Tenney - matches Engle
Thomas, Roy - matches Crawford and Knight
Thomas, Ira
Tinker
Wallace

[frohme]

Hey Pat

Your list here doesn't include the two I added back in post #4 in the thread, BTW.

--
Mike

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by frohme

Hey Pat

Your list here doesn't include the two I added back in post #4 in the thread, BTW.

--
Mike

Thanks Mike,

I made the list from the scans I had and I missed the two you posted.
I went through the thread and found a couple of more I had missed
and I made the corrections.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
But consider this....Including your data (125/4 "scratches") we have a total of 511 samples of E90-1 cards with only 18 examples of "ink streaks".
This results in a mere 3.5 % with this anomaly from this large sample of cards. And it's considerably less percentage than the T206 Piedmont 150
data that Pat has analyzed.
Therefore, the remark by some here...."what difference does it make" what printer (or machinery) was used to produce these E90-1 cards, is very
naïve (if not uninformed).
Anyway, I hope as you do that this survey may provide us some ideas of how the various series of this set were printed (1908 - Summer of 1910).

This is a question you and I and others on this forum have discussed ever since I posted this E90-1 thread in March 2006......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=89941


Take care......I am choosing to refrain from any further inputs to this thread.

TED Z
.

Originally Posted by steve B

Ted makes some interesting points, some more interesting than others.

The percentage of cards showing marks from plate scratches or streaks is currently fairly low. This could be from a few things. It could be that collectively we've only looked at/for them for a brief time. Pat has pointed out a couple of the other limiting things. In comparison to the P150's there are fewer scratches so fewer cards from a sheet will be affected. And when the scratch happened will have a lot of bearing on the percentage found. I think it's simply too early to draw much of a conclusion from that percentage.


The question of what sort of press produced the set is a good one.

If they were produced on a then fairly cutting edge rotary offset press that used metal plates it opens up a lot of complications. The plates at the time were expensive and not simple to produce. http://sites.tech.uh.edu/digitalmedi...y_of_Litho.pdf
I don't see a mention of them being saved for reuse, but it's possible they may have been as it was a fairly common thing with the stones. (Some were saved, others were resurfaced for reuse)

If the plates were saved, they would be just as likely to be damaged as a stone. That damage might be different, as different accidents happen to large, inflexible heavy things than happen to light flexible things that happen to also be large.
Diagonal streaks aren't all that likely on a rotary press. And consistent diagonal streaks are even less likely. Streaks parallel to the direction the sheet travels are likely, but these marks are not parallel to either a sheet run sideways or vertically. And a diagonal layout for rectangular objects would be really odd.
Rotary offset plates can get scratched, just as stones can. I have a 1981 Fleer card with a nice red line from a plate scratch, and I'm very sure a rotary offset press was used.

So to some extent the type of press used and how the printer handled the plates does matter. If plates weren't typically saved, consistent diagonal marks on series separated by time would most likely indicate a stone rather than plates.
Another possibility would be the printing of various groups of fronts in different quantities either at the same time, or consecutively - group 1 Monday and Tuesday, group 2 Wednesday........with the backs printed last. I think that's unlikely, especially as one group typically shows flaws from dry or worn plates. (Using plates to include stones for simplicity)


Even if the marks are indeed streaks, they're consistent enough to give us an idea of what cards were next to each other.

There are fairly consistent streaks on more modern cards, once the rate the sheets were fed at got high enough static electricity became a problem, and the solution was dragging a string much like tinsel along the sheets being fed into the press. With proper drying in between colors, they shouldn't happen, but on a lot of 50's era cards they're common.
I don't think the presses of the era, even rotary ones had a high enough rate. But some part of the press being loose might cause a streak.
Personally I believe these are too consistent to be anything other than plate damage. Scratches most likely, but if it was a rotary press they could also be cracks, which would explain why they're less common.

All in all, they're worth studying.


Steve B

Hi Steve,

I think Ted misinterpreted what I said. I certainly think it's important how they were printed I was referring to where they were printed.

In a few days it will be four years since you started the PD150 plate scratch thread. I have been tracking them through ebay and most of the
auction houses since then and I can say without a doubt that so far the E90-1's are showing up at a higher %.

If you look at past sales on cardtarget many of the E90-1's have sales with back scans in the single digits for a subject. On the other
hand the majority of PD150 subjects have over 100 sales with back scans.

I'm not sure if it has been established which company in Philadelphia printed the E90-1's but if it was George Harris and sons
which I believe was the largest lithographic printer there at the time they were owned by American Lithograph.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
But consider this....Including your data (125/4 "scratches") we have a total of 511 samples of E90-1 cards with only 18 examples of "ink streaks".
This results in a mere 3.5 % with this anomaly from this large sample of cards. And it's considerably less percentage than the T206 Piedmont 150
data that Pat has analyzed.
Therefore, the remark by some here...."what difference does it make" what printer (or machinery) was used to produce these E90-1 cards, is very
naïve (if not uninformed).
Anyway, I hope as you do that this survey may provide us some ideas of how the various series of this set were printed (1908 - Summer of 1910).

This is a question you and I and others on this forum have discussed ever since I posted this E90-1 thread in March 2006......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=89941


Take care......I am choosing to refrain from any further inputs to this thread.

TED Z
.



Hi Steve,

I think Ted misinterpreted what I said. I certainly think it's important how they were printed I was referring to where they were printed.

In a few days it will be four years since you started the PD150 plate scratch thread. I have been tracking them through ebay and most of the
auction houses since then and I can say without a doubt that so far the E90-1's are showing up at a higher %.

If you look at past sales on cardtarget many of the E90-1's have sales with back scans in the single digits for a subject. On the other
hand the majority of PD150 subjects have over 100 sales with back scans.

I'm not sure if it has been established which company in Philadelphia printed the E90-1's but if it was George Harris and sons
which I believe was the largest lithographic printer there at the time they were owned by American Lithograph.

American Caramel printed by American Litho....sounds plausible. Four years is a flash in the pan!! Now a ten year old thread and we're talking...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Steve,

I think Ted misinterpreted what I said. I certainly think it's important how they were printed I was referring to where they were printed.

In a few days it will be four years since you started the PD150 plate scratch thread. I have been tracking them through ebay and most of the
auction houses since then and I can say without a doubt that so far the E90-1's are showing up at a higher %.

If you look at past sales on cardtarget many of the E90-1's have sales with back scans in the single digits for a subject. On the other
hand the majority of PD150 subjects have over 100 sales with back scans.

I'm not sure if it has been established which company in Philadelphia printed the E90-1's but if it was George Harris and sons
which I believe was the largest lithographic printer there at the time they were owned by American Lithograph.

I've just been looking for info on George Harris and sons, and not finding much. I'm wondering if they were in any way related to the Harris automatic press company that made the first commercially successful rotary offset presses?
Some of that companies records are in the Smithsonian, and accessible to researchers. http://sirismm.si.edu/EADpdfs/NMAH.AC.0928.pdf

I did find an interesting bit. Harris company did make 2 color presses at least as early as 1908. I've suspected for some time that at least T206s if not other cards were produced on 2 color presses. https://books.google.com/books?id=C7...ompany&f=false Page 902 if the link doesn't go directly.


It's interesting that the E90 scratches are more common than T206 scratches, but not too surprising now that I think on it a bit. Shorter overall press run, and for P150 probably some previous fairly large press runs, so if the scratches happened mid run, they should be a bit more common in comparison.

It's very interesting to me if ALC owned Harris. But the reason is a bit far afield for this thread.

Steve B

[irishdenny]

Gentlemen,

According to VCBC #35 April 2003 Article on E90-1's,
Hobby Veteran Mr. Mark Macrae tells us that E90-1's
Were Also Printed oN the West Coast via Corporation
Hand Shaking. The Process is Explained
On the Last Page of the fore mention'd Article I've Included!

So Maybe the Scratches were produced on the West Coast!?

Also...
Obviously The Article has a few areas
THaT have BeeN Updated Since it's Published Date.
One in which Mr. Jackson's Cards Price has Completely Over~Taken
Mr. Mitchell's Cincinnati Card.
Another of Course, is which Cards are Actually More & Less Available.
Which is another Topic All Tagether

(My Apologies fir the State of the Articles Viewing,
IncreasiN Your Zoom Level Should Bring it Back to a Readable Existence!)

[irishdenny]

Seems We Have 3 Scratches Thru the Bat!

Pat R's 3rd Mr. Mathewson, Mike's Mr. Miller Fielding & my Mr. Stone's(LHV)!

I Wonder if We Keep Studying these if we Would Eventually be Able to Figure Out Weather THeY Came From the East or West Coast Produced Cards!?
Or at Least Separate the Production SiGHTs!?

I do Believe THaT Mr. Mark MaCrae 's Deep Due Diligence has brought ta LiGHT
Sum Really Cool Evidence! (imho anyways)

[Pat R]

It's been 1 1/2 years since the last post in this thread but here are a
few new ones to add to the list.

Bradley E90-1.jpg

E90-1 Brown.jpg

E90-1 Jennings.jpg

Miller E90-1 B.jpg

Keeler E90-1.jpg

There are two new chase scratches

this one

Chase E90-1 4.jpg

and this one which is also an exact match with a new Clarke scratch

Chase E90-1 3.jpg Clarke E90-1.jpg

Chase E90-1 3 - Copy.jpg

some of the scratches are hard to see with the smaller scans
you can veiw larger scans using this link all of the newer scratches
are at the end of the album.
https://imageevent.com/patrickr/e901platescratches?n=0

[tiger8mush]

These are my only two E90-1s with plate scratches. Both are Tannehills, I have a couple others without. Sorry, doesn't appear that these are new additions to your list

[Pat R]

New one in Scott's auction a Groom that matches one of the Mathewson's
and one of the Stone (left hands).
E90-1 Groom.jpg
E90-1 Mathewson.jpgE90-1 Stone.jpg

[Pat R]

Here's another new scratch a Heitmuller that's in the LOTG auction.
It's an exact match with the Tannehill Rob posted a couple posts up.

Heitmuller Back.jpg

Heitmuller.jpg