Poll: Is this Cobb legit, or is it a "rotten peach"?

[smotan_02]

completely serious

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by smotan_02

completely serious

So you actually thought that I might die with that cut????
That I was going to keep it for many years???
When I specifically said I wanted it for a short time you thought it could be robbed from me or that I would die with it????????
Wow!!!
What reason would I have had to keep it???

[GrayGhost]

This whole thing is ridiculous. Its a fake, PSA messed up, it should just be dropped. But, to not trust someone like Richard or the mail is being a bit too paranoid mail wise, and just mistrusting of someone w a good rep.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

This whole thing is ridiculous. Its a fake, PSA messed up, it should just be dropped. But, to not trust someone like Richard or the mail is being a bit too paranoid mail wise, and just mistrusting of someone w a good rep.

I think it would have been dropped if PSA would have just said they messed up and certed an "autograph" that was made by a computer printer.

We just can't believe it since it is an exact, exact copy of Ron's Cobb signature so we would like to look for ourselves.

I think the 'lost in the mail' reasoning is ridiculous too, but it's just a way to make sure no one else sees it and can disagree with psa's assessment.

[perezfan]

Any logical person would come to the conclusion that it's a photocopy of the original. There's no way that every nuance of the original signature could be perfectly replicated in that fashion.

Any disagreement here lies within the semantics of the "Master Forger" statement. Does "master forger" imply it was actually drawn by hand? Or that the forger possesses state of the art technology to replicate the signature onto another piece of paper (and make it look like ink from a pen?)

Any claim that it was hand-drawn is preposterous, as this is simply an impossibility. So for me, it comes down to a semantics issue (or an interpretation of PSA's wording).

[RichardSimon]

That is why I practically begged Don to send it to me.
I offered to pay out of my own pocket, so Don does not suffer any further loss, just for the sake of studying this item to see how it looked so if I ever ran across the "Hewlett Packard master forger" again, it would be easily identifiable.
Also a word to the wise - anyone finding old baseball cards at an estate sale, be careful if there is a cut HOF autograph in the group of cards, it will be the master forger at work again.

Originally Posted by RichardSimon
According to what Donovan told us - PSA Discovers Master Forger!!!
Someone great enough to fool the entire world,,,except for one thing, the master forger is a Hewlett Packard printer and it did not fool some people on Net54.

ps. we should all quit the autograph business now, there is a master forger on the loose,,, A MASTER. Us mere mortals have no chance.

Originally Posted by travrosty

Richard, I found that peculiar too, ,that psa would use the word MASTER forger, it might be the only way to explain that they would get fooled is to create a MASTER forger, for surely no one could blame them now that this Merlin the magician is out there, we are no match.

You two keep referring to PSA calling this the work of a Master Forger, and you seem to be taking delight in denigrating their use of that term - but I've read both threads on this matter, and I didn't see where PSA used that term, or was reported to have used that term. Is there a 3rd thread, or did I miss something?

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Any logical person would come to the conclusion that it's a photocopy of the original. There's no way that every nuance of the original signature could be perfectly replicated in that fashion.

So for me, it comes down to a semantics issue (or an interpretation of PSA's wording).

this! it's a xerox, but psa can't really say so because it would hurt their rep and open themselves up for more xerox'ed submissions in the future (that they might deem authentic).

you guys trying every which way to reason so donavon would send out the cut is pretty funny. it's not a great loss to the hobby if destroyed. we will not gain any more knowledge by examining the piece. you guys just want to catch psa so bad in what you perceive is some conspiracy and deception, but like perezfan said it's just a game of semantics. let it go, there's been no big cover-up like you guys have hinted all thread.

[David Atkatz]

It is certainly not a "game of semantics." Their "explanation" is out-and-out bullsh$t. They certed and slabbed a print. The "experts" (without whose imprimatur no autograph can be trusted) can't tell an inkjet print from the real McCoy. And they don't have the integrity to admit they f%#ked up.

[RichardSimon]

Sorry Karl, here is the term that was used by PSA according to a post by Don (in the BST thread):
"it seems that there is an amazing forger out there."
they said amazing, I said master,,, I say tomato,,they say tomatoh,,,,etc.,etc.
If I am guilty of exaggeration, well then I am sorry about that.
And as for other comments in this thread by chad, if PSA examined this piece originally and deemed it authentic, then examined it again and realized what they did, don't you think that they dont want the entire hobby world to know that they blew it to an HP printer. Would they not prefer the hobby to think they blew it to an "amazing forger." (whose pen skipped in the exact same place that Cobb's did in the original 3x5 sig. in Ron's collection). I think that would be the very definition of a coverup and the coverup always turns out to be worse than the original mistake, just look at your history books.
And I think it is pretty amazing that an "amazing forger" drops his best work in an estate sale, mixed in with some Goudey cards. Just the place where he can minimize his money.
Where else has his work appeared??? If he is truly amazing and truly a human, then you would think that his work would be all over the hobby. If the forger is truly amazing and not a human perhaps there are many other examples of his work out there that have slipped into the hobby the same way that the Cobb cut has. I can hear the sound of hammers now, cracking open those plastic tombs.

[travrosty]

Here is the relevant phrase by donavon.,,


The cut was, in fact, deemed a forgery. After a lengthy discussion with the operations manager, it seems that there is an amazing forger out there. The cut was not a laser copy as previously speculated, but a well made forgery by someone with a very skilled hand.


-----

note he said it was not a laser copy, it was a hand copy by a great forger. The guy was so good and thorough that he made sure to copy the stray dots in the background too!

It is impossible to copy it exact like that by hand, and is baloney.

so thats why we would like to inspect it.

[GrayGhost]

It is a BS explanation for Sure, unless the "forger" put the green dots in the EXACT place etc. Id say its laser..haha.

PSA is trying to save face on the laser issue.. oh well.

[travrosty]

For people on this board who haven't seen it, here is

1. Ron's cobb

2. the cut cobb with circles around dots in the background that correspond to the same dots in Ron's example.

3. the cut cobb without the circles so you can look for them.



For it to not be a computer printed copy is not possible. The background was scanned and printed out too.

[David Atkatz]

I'd go so far as to say that Donavon can't send the cut to Richard, because he doesn't have it, and will never have it. I'm sure that PSA told him he'd be reimbursed only if they (PSA) kept the item.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

this! it's a xerox, but psa can't really say so because it would hurt their rep

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

let it go, there's been no big cover-up

Huh? You say that it's a xerox, but then say PSA really can't admit that or it would hurt their rep. Then you say there's no cover up. Ummm, isn't denying you were wrong when you know that you were the same as covering something up? It is where I come from.

[thecatspajamas]

Hopefully Donavon can at least provide a better scan of his cut before he destroys it. Staring at that fuzzy image trying to compare dots is messing with my eyes...

[vintagetoppsguy]

If Donavon is worried about it getting lost or stolen in the mail and falling into the wrong hands, couldn't he simply cut it in half before he sends it? Right down the middle between the "y" and the "C." That would eliminate any potential fraud/scam and I believe Richard could still examine it in two separate pieces, right?

[David Atkatz]

I'll say it again:

Donavon can't send the cut to Richard, because he doesn't have it, and will never have it. I'm sure that PSA told him he'd be reimbursed only if they (PSA) kept the item.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I'll say it again:

Donavon can't send the cut to Richard, because he doesn't have it, and will never have it. I'm sure that PSA told him he'd be reimbursed only if they (PSA) kept the item.

From Donovan's own words, "PSA/DNA will be sending the cut back to me to do as I wish."

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If Donavon is worried about it getting lost or stolen in the mail and falling into the wrong hands, couldn't he simply cut it in half before he sends it? Right down the middle between the "y" and the "C." That would eliminate any potential fraud/scam and I believe Richard could still examine it in two separate pieces, right?

exactly,

i have also asked donovan to show the cut with a current copy of the newspaper or SI when he gets it to prove that he got it back.

he wont do it, and he wont let anyone look at it. guaranteed.

prove us wrong, sir.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If Donavon is worried about it getting lost or stolen in the mail and falling into the wrong hands, couldn't he simply cut it in half before he sends it? Right down the middle between the "y" and the "C." That would eliminate any potential fraud/scam and I believe Richard could still examine it in two separate pieces, right?

That would be no problem for me.

[chaddurbin]

psa is a multi-million dollar company. they wouldn't want to admit fault unless absolutely have to. it's not in their best interest to admit they couldn't get a xerox'd cut correct, would be bad for their bottom line. that's their sop. the whole master forger thing is a farce and excuse given on the phone, it's probably not in writing.

i'm surprised OP is saying he's getting the cut back. usually when psa reimburse they'd destroy the evidence and probably make you sign a non-disclosure and be done with it, like other big companies.

edit: take up a collection and fly richard to louisiana. we've gone this far. i feel too committed to this stupid ty cobb cut now.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i'm surprised OP is saying he's getting the cut back. usually when psa reimburse they'd destroy the evidence and probably make you sign a non-disclosure and be done with it, like other big companies.

I guess it depends on what they reimburse him for. It is my understanding that Donovan was the sumbitter of the item. If that is the case, they would only have to reimburse him for the authentication fees. Legally the cut would still be his. I guess they would have the option to buy it back at fair market value, but if they're only reimbursing him the authentication fees then the cut is still his.

If he were to have purchased the cut already authenticated and then sent it back in for re-evalution, then that is a different story. Then they would have to reimburse him full fair market value. At least that's my understanding of how it works.

[yanks12025]

David,

I was thinking that the whole time, that he probably hadn't gotten it back. Specially now that he won't even post it with a current newspaper.

And I'm sure that if Richard changed his mind said he'd go, I'm sure Donovan would change his mind and tell Richard that he can't now. Because he knows Richard won't make that trip.

Any one on the board living near the seller?

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I guess it depends on what they reimburse him for. It is my understanding that Donovan was the sumbitter of the item. If that is the case, they would only have to reimburse him for the authentication fees. Legally the cut would still be his. I guess they would have the option to buy it back at fair market value, but if they're only reimbursing him the authentication fees then the cut is still his.

If he were to have purchased the cut already authenticated and then sent it back in for re-evalution, then that is a different story. Then they would have to reimburse him full fair market value. At least that's my understanding of how it works.

having read donavon's posts again he was the original submitter and psa is giving him back the submission fees+$100 for shipping and the cut back. different story if he was the buyer of the cut.

[David Atkatz]

post removed

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I guess it depends on what they reimburse him for. It is my understanding that Donovan was the sumbitter of the item. If that is the case, they would only have to reimburse him for the authentication fees. Legally the cut would still be his. I guess they would have the option to buy it back at fair market value, but if they're only reimbursing him the authentication fees then the cut is still his.

If he were to have purchased the cut already authenticated and then sent it back in for re-evalution, then that is a different story. Then they would have to reimburse him full fair market value. At least that's my understanding of how it works.

If he was the buyer of the cut that was already slabbed, they wouldn't HAVE to do anything. They have no fast and hard rules regarding buybacks. It's up to their discretion based upon how much bad publicity they might want to receive or avoid on any one item.

They have a disclaimer saying their loa's are only their opinion, and no warranty is given, and they make no guarantee. That gets them out of any of these situations and any money given to anyone is voluntary on their part.

I would be surprised if they gave him the cut back and didn't buy it from him. maybe that is why it is being destroyed immediately, so we can't see it first.

I want to see it when it comes back.

[David Atkatz]

It ain't comin' back.

[RichardSimon]

Don - the poll stands at 37-5, basically that means the vast majority of the people who voted do not give any credibility to your version of events. That is the most overwhelming vote I have ever seen in a pole on Net54.
You have stated there is a visible impression on the back of the autograph, made by a pen. If the autograph was printed by machine, which is what most believe, then there should be no impression. So these people are all saying they doubt your story.
A word of advice - if your story is true, and you know it to be true, take a picture of the signature with a current newspaper and post that here and then ship the autograph to me or Travis. I will be happy to reimburse your shipping expenses.
Otherwise there will always be doubts about you and your entire story. The story of the cut appearing in an estate sale with old cards, the story of PSA and the amazing forger who fooled them and everything connected to this will always be doubted. Your future actions in the hobby will always carry this story with them. You have backed yourself into a position where you have to prove your innocence. I know that is contrary to the American way but that is how things have turned out here. And it is quite easy for you to prove your innocence. Extraordinarily easy as a matter of fact. And please, don't repeat the story of being afraid the cut will get lost or that I will do something with it. Nobody here gives those stories any credibiliy at all. Those stories just make you look much worse and tend to make people totally disbelieve whatever you say.
Don the ball is in your court now.
What will you do?

[smotan_02]

When did a witch hunt become part of the hobby? Stock up on your game used pitch forks.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by smotan_02

When did a witch hunt become part of the hobby?

Maybe after deception became part of the hobby?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Maybe after deception became part of the hobby?

+1

[smotan_02]

That is just it. Donovan has not openly deceived anyone. He has been completely open and honest. A deceptive person would have carried on with the sale. You take his lack of posting as deception and tell him he must "prove his innocence" What?! Give me a break. Like most of us the guy has a job, he doesnt have time to ask how high when you say jump. It's his cut, if he wants to burn it, frame it, make an airplane out of it, roll it into a cigar and smoke it, then that is his business. You want to hold your breath and stomp your feet because he wont send it to someone that he doesnt know and let alone know their motives. You poll was right, way to go, high five each other, the auto is a fake. Let it go. You guys can have your autos, this is too sad for me.

[RichardSimon]

So you think that he "found" this cut among a group of Goudey cards at an estate sale? That the amazing forger just dropped it in there? That there is the impression of a pen on the back of the autographed paper?
I am not sure what the answer is to these questions. I am trying to find out what the answers are. I am trying to find out if deception is involved. It can all be easily cleared up by Don. I realize if he does not want to do it, that is his right, but we then have the right to think what we want to think.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by smotan_02

That is just it. Donovan has not openly deceived anyone. He has been completely open and honest. A deceptive person would have carried on with the sale. You take his lack of posting as deception and tell him he must "prove his innocence" What?! Give me a break. Like most of us the guy has a job, he doesnt have time to ask how high when you say jump. It's his cut, if he wants to burn it, frame it, make an airplane out of it, roll it into a cigar and smoke it, then that is his business. You want to hold your breath and stomp your feet because he wont send it to someone that he doesnt know and let alone know their motives. You poll was right, way to go, high five each other, the auto is a fake. Let it go. You guys can have your autos, this is too sad for me.

It is obvious to most that he is not being forthright about the autograph.

He wouldn't be defensive about it and fight tooth and nail if he was a victim and had the opportunity to have it checked out for free by one of the hobby's long time respected authenticators in Mr. Simon.

He had no problem sending it through the mail to psa, the same company that made the wrong call initially about the autograph, but won't send it for a second opinion to someone who didn't get it wrong?

No one is saying he can't do with it what he wants. Obviously he can.

What we are questioning is his motives for hiding it from the hobby and being so quick to destroy something that you can't get back once it's gone that could help the hobby in the autograph forgery education department.

Let's learn from it. let's find out if it is really a hand drawn forgery, or if it is a printed scan. PSA has a vested interest in it being one way or the other. An authenticator like Richard does not have any skin in the game. We simply don't believe PSA, and we have a hard time believing Donavon's motivation for wanting to burn it.

He's not caught behind enemy lines in WWII with secret codes and needs to eat them. To say that the autograph could get lost in the mail or that someone might pass away is ridiculous. We ain't buying it.

Smotan, I assume you believe PSA's assessment that someone can have the ability and the steadiest hand in the world to exactly copy another autograph with no discernable differences to the human eye? Is that what you believe? Because we don't believe it. And if it is a computer printed copy, then PSA shouldn't be able to get away with saying that they didn't get fooled by a printed copy and that is why Donavon seems to be complicit in the plan to make sure no separate third party can verify the computer printed autograph.

[smotan_02]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Smotan, I assume you believe PSA's assessment that someone can have the ability and the steadiest hand in the world to exactly copy another autograph with no discernable differences to the human eye? Is that what you believe? Because we don't believe it. And if it is a computer printed copy, then PSA shouldn't be able to get away with saying that they didn't get fooled by a printed copy and that is why Donavon seems to be complicit in the plan to make sure no separate third party can verify the computer printed autograph.

I believe one fact in the autograph industry. Every single assessment of an unwitnessed autograph is an opinion.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by smotan_02

I believe one fact in the autograph industry. Every single assessment of an unwitnessed autograph is an opinion.

You are right, but I would like to render my opinion on this widely discussed item and I am not being allowed to.
Yes, I know Smo,,, it is his cut and he can do with it what he wants. But the people who have expressed an opinion here, yourself excepted, seem to think that I should be allowed to see it.
So far the only opinion we have here is one that has a decided self interest and though my opinion about that particular entity is known here, I feel that most people here would trust my opinion if I were allowed to get my hands on that cut autograph.
I promise I won't die or allow it to be stolen when it is in my hands .

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by smotan_02

I believe one fact in the autograph industry. Every single assessment of an unwitnessed autograph is an opinion.

Let me tell you something, the fact that an autograph has an in person, witnessed COA does not necessarily mean anything either.

[smotan_02]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Let me tell you something, the fact that an autograph has an in person, witnessed COA does not necessarily mean anything either.

Not what I said...but get your point. So to slim down my point.

"Every assessment of an autograph is an opinion"

[RichardSimon]

I was referring to in person COA's issued by a company where the autograph was not really witnessed.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by smotan_02

Not what I said...but get your point. So to slim down my point.

"Every assessment of an autograph is an opinion"

but psa's opinion is ludicrous, no one can freehand an exact copy of an autograph like that, can't happen, not possible, show me how to do it.

it could be their opinion that a dog did it, but not all opinions are credible or even possible. The autographs aren't just close, they are exact.

You still haven't told me if you believe psa's opinion. do you?

[smotan_02]

Originally Posted by travrosty

You still haven't told me if you believe psa's opinion. do you?

As much as I believe your opinion. I showed the auto to my dog, he wagged his tail. I believe his opinion too.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by smotan_02

As much as I believe your opinion. I showed the auto to my dog, he wagged his tail. I believe his opinion too.

It can be scientifically proven that it is a printed copy, if that interests you. not everything is just an opinion. if the earth is round is just an opinion for you, then there is no point in converting those who don't want to know.

You didn't offer your beliefs in the company's opinion, which tells me you don't really believe it is a freehand forger's copy like psa evidently said but you are one of the defenders who run interference and want it swept under the rug. That's what we fight in this hobby. trying to clean it up is a herculean task when there are those who don't want it to be cleaned up and just want the status quo to continue.

They don't want any doubt that a printed copy can get by them, because then ANY autograph they have certed that matches exemplars and is slabbed might be called into question. There are thousands upon thousands of them out there.

Collectors know that a forgery slips by sometimes, maybe more often than the company lets on, and the company can live with that, but if collectors realize that the printed copies are getting through, then any autograph they have in a slab that they didn't see signed in person is a potential big question mark.

[drc]

My dog sniffed it and gave the verdict: Not food. Can't be more scientific than that.

[vintagetoppsguy]

My dog sniffs his butt, which smells like PSA's opinion in this matter.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

My dog sniffs his butt, which smells like PSA's opinion in this matter.

+1,,, good one .

[smotan_02]

Originally Posted by travrosty

It can be scientifically proven that it is a printed copy, if that interests you. not everything is just an opinion. if the earth is round is just an opinion for you, then there is no point in converting those who don't want to know.

True/Doesnt Interest me/Earth is round

Originally Posted by travrosty

You didn't offer your beliefs in the company's opinion, which tells me you don't really believe it is a freehand forger's copy like psa evidently said but you are one of the defenders who run interference and want it swept under the rug. That's what we fight in this hobby. trying to clean it up is a herculean task when there are those who don't want it to be cleaned up and just want the status quo to continue.

So if Im not with you then Im against you?

Originally Posted by travrosty

They doesn't want any doubt that a printed copy can get by them, because then ANY autograph they have certed that matches exemplars and is slabbed might be called into question. There are thousands upon thousands of them out there.

Next you are going to tell me that numerical grades on PSA cards can be called into question too?!

Originally Posted by travrosty

Collectors know that a forgery slips by sometimes, maybe more often than the company lets on, and the company can live with that, but if collectors realize that the printed copies are getting through, then any autograph they have in a slab that they didn't see signed in person is a potential big question mark.

You said this, not PSA. You want to prove PSA is incompetent. You need to see the auto in person to prove this. Donovan doesnt want give you his personal property. Donovan is now part of PSA in your eyes. You want to prove them incompetent. Ahhh, the circle of life.

[drc]

In my opinion, it's Donovan's right to keep it. Why? Because it's his.

[RichardSimon]

You are right David, it is his and he can keep it or go further with it.
However I think people on this board will judge the autograph and his statements by his action or inaction. If he does not care, that is his perogative.
Most have already judged the autograph, if he wants to try to change some minds he can go further. If he does not want to change people's minds than he can do nothing and stand by all his prior statements and people will judge accordingly.

[travrosty]

Donavon,

do you have the identical williams sigs you promised a month ago?


i think this whole deal is a big stonewall. can you show the cobb cut with a current newspaper so we know you got it back as you claim?

certainly psa has sent it back to you by now?