What if they used today's baseballs?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

what a crock of shit that you actually believe this....

The bat was up for auction but the family said they would sue so I was taken down.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The bat was up for auction but the family said they would sue so I was taken down.

I'm not talking about a bat numb nuts, I'm talking about reference to Mantle taking steriods like your lame ass partner suggested.....

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I'm not talking about a bat numb nuts, I'm talking about reference to Mantle taking steriods like your lame ass partner suggested.....

We will never know but yes I do, just like I think several others from that era did including Maris. Why wouldn't they, they were not against the rules or even illegal then?

[Touch'EmAll]

What do you folks think about the depth of talent ? I kinda agree the top players would be top players in any era. However, I feel the bottom 25% of the players today are closer to the top than the bottom 25% of 100 years ago - basically the talent spread is much closer today than way back. That enables the top players way back players to put up better stats - both pitchers and hitters. Could be wrong, food for thought.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

What do you folks think about the depth of talent ? I kinda agree the top players would be top players in any era. However, I feel the bottom 25% of the players today are closer to the top than the bottom 25% of 100 years ago - basically the talent spread is much closer today than way back. That enables the top players way back players to put up better stats - both pitchers and hitters. Could be wrong, food for thought.

The population base if far larger today than it was, especially pre- 1947/8

One of the guys who spoke to the club years ago had a couple interesting numbers. He asked how many players were playing when he was vs how many now. At the time he said organized baseball in the US, counting independent leagues had about 17,500 players. Just before WWII the number was supposedly closer to 175,000. Now I don't think those figures are entirely accurate, as they probably don't include international leagues that weren't scouted then, and some of that 175K was in town and industrial leagues which had extremely variable levels of play.

But his point was that unless you were a Ted Williams or DiMaggio or nearly that good, you had to be good, get along, etc, or they could replace you with a phone call.

How many teams today keep guys on the roster because "well, we're paying him X million a year, we'll keep putting him out there until he gets better or the contract is up."

[Misunderestimated]

2 points:
1. The possible population for MLB baseball players today extends beyond the USA far more than it ever has. Before 1947 it was essentially limited to white males in the USA.

2. They change out the baseballs far more than they did in the past. Before 1920 (Mays sidearm kills Chapman and Spitballs legal) they tried assiduously to conserve baseballs during MLB games.

These 2 changes make cross-historical comparison of hitters very difficult. The former clearly means that there was much much less competition in the past. The later meant that hitting was often a very different challenge than it is today.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by bnorth

We will never know but yes I do, just like I think several others from that era did including Maris. Why wouldn't they, they were not against the rules or even illegal then?

Agreed, if it is not illegal and easy to get would he be doing his job if he didn't? A two minute google tells you that he got that abcess from Jacobson...the exact guy who had the president on methamphimines. His shot mixtures were well known and had animal hormones and steroids.

Chose to believe what you want but the earliest admission of steroid use was HoF member Pud Galvin in the 1800s who was shooting horse testosterone. If you want to pretend that professional athletes ignored steroids in the sixties and the commies were the only ones in the world with their athletes on them with all the evidence in world that that's not the fact then enjoy those Vaseline covered glasses.

That's not for you Brian, it's for the one standing in front of the Darwin Museum ignoring how science works.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Agreed, if it is not illegal and easy to get would he be doing his job if he didn't? A two minute google tells you that he got that abcess from Jacobson...the exact guy who had the president on methamphimines. His shot mixtures were well known and had animal hormones and steroids.

Chose to believe what you want but the earliest admission of steroid use was HoF member Pud Galvin in the 1800s who was shooting horse testosterone. If you want to pretend that professional athletes ignored steroids in the sixties and the commies were the only ones in the world with their athletes on them with all the evidence in world that that's not the fact then enjoy those Vaseline covered glasses.

That's not for you Brian, it's for the one standing in front of the Darwin Museum ignoring how science works.

Do you even know what the Hell you are talking about?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Agreed, if it is not illegal and easy to get would he be doing his job if he didn't? A two minute google tells you that he got that abcess from Jacobson...the exact guy who had the president on methamphimines. His shot mixtures were well known and had animal hormones and steroids.

Chose to believe what you want but the earliest admission of steroid use was HoF member Pud Galvin in the 1800s who was shooting horse testosterone. If you want to pretend that professional athletes ignored steroids in the sixties and the commies were the only ones in the world with their athletes on them with all the evidence in world that that's not the fact then enjoy those Vaseline covered glasses.

That's not for you Brian, it's for the one standing in front of the Darwin Museum ignoring how science works.

Not completely sure, but you might be the dumbest person I have ever heard pertaining this subject...Pud Galvin shooting horse steriods? Really? Let me ask you something....Barry Bonds went from about 6-1 165 lbs, to 240 lbs and a head the size of a pumpkin. Mickey Mantle, Roger Maris were the same physical stats pretty much throughout their careers. Also, Mark McGwire was a string bean with the A's, and then all of a sudden, the Jolly Green Giant with size 38" thighs....Please know what the Hell you are talking about, OK?

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Not completely sure, but you might be the dumbest person I have ever heard pertaining this subject...Pud Galvin shooting horse steriods? Really? Let me ask you something....Barry Bonds went from about 6-1 165 lbs, to 240 lbs and a head the size of a pumpkin. Mickey Mantle, Roger Maris were the same physical stats pretty much throughout their careers. Also, Mark McGwire was a string bean with the A's, and then all of a sudden, the Jolly Green Giant with size 38" thighs....Please know what the Hell you are talking about, OK?

What you think steroids do on their own shows you know jack. The best use of steroids is speed of healing and recovery. I guess they only work the way you think and lance Armstrong was 250 with Hogan arms.

Done with talking to you on this because your extent of knowledge consists of things you "think" and ignore any actual subject matter.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Not completely sure, but you might be the dumbest person I have ever heard pertaining this subject...Pud Galvin shooting horse steriods? Really? Let me ask you something....Barry Bonds went from about 6-1 165 lbs, to 240 lbs and a head the size of a pumpkin. Mickey Mantle, Roger Maris were the same physical stats pretty much throughout their careers. Also, Mark McGwire was a string bean with the A's, and then all of a sudden, the Jolly Green Giant with size 38" thighs....Please know what the Hell you are talking about, OK?

Since this claim probably needs some backup...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...her-of-juicing

And from here a bit more balanced look at it. It was actually dog and guniea pig testicles....And apparently didn't actually work
https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/38c553ff

With the publication of Roger I. Abrams’ The Dark Side of the Diamond: Gambling, Violence, Drugs and Alcoholism in the National Pastime, in 2007, Galvin became 21st-century news. He was given the title of baseball’s first user of performance-enhancing drugs. Abrams found an article in the Washington Post from August 14, 1889, that said:
“Galvin was one of the subjects at a test of the Brown-Séquard elixir at a medical college in Pittsburgh on Monday. If there still be doubting Thomases who concede no virtue in the elixir, they are respectfully referred to Galvin’s record in yesterday’s Boston-Pittsburg game. It is the best proof yet furnished of the value of the discovery.”34
In that game Galvin pitched a two-hit shutout and was uncharacteristically successful at the plate. Abrams takes the article at face value, connecting Galvin’s participation in the trial with his success in the following game, in the process defying the long-held and correct notion that correlation does not imply causation.
The Brown-Séquard elixir was invented in 1889 by Charles Brown-Séquard, a French-American doctor. The elixir, which was injected, was based around extracts from guinea-pig and dog testicles and was apparently the first known modern treatment that contained testosterone. Abrams thus relates the elixir to the anabolic steroids that we know of today and ties Galvin to cheating and performance-enhancing drugs.
Abrams, however, fails to take into account the primitive nature of the Brown-Séquard elixir, which made it biologically ineffective according to scientific research published in 2002. The only possible benefit for Galvin, therefore, would have been a placebo effect. Moreover, the instance cited by Abrams appears to have been isolated. Abrams’ association of Galvin’s one-time use of the Brown-Séquard elixir in 1889 with modern-day steroid use is further undermined because the elixir was not banned by professional baseball. It is anachronistic to look back at Galvin’s one-time use of this elixir and consider it performance enhancement, cheating, or unethical behavior. Still, national news outlets and websites publicized and excerpted Abrams’ work, thus helping to slightly tarnish Galvin’s reputation and legacy.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by steve B

Since this claim probably needs some backup...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...her-of-juicing

And from here a bit more balanced look at it. It was actually dog and guniea pig testicles....And apparently didn't actually work
https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/38c553ff

With the publication of Roger I. Abrams’ The Dark Side of the Diamond: Gambling, Violence, Drugs and Alcoholism in the National Pastime, in 2007, Galvin became 21st-century news. He was given the title of baseball’s first user of performance-enhancing drugs. Abrams found an article in the Washington Post from August 14, 1889, that said:
“Galvin was one of the subjects at a test of the Brown-Séquard elixir at a medical college in Pittsburgh on Monday. If there still be doubting Thomases who concede no virtue in the elixir, they are respectfully referred to Galvin’s record in yesterday’s Boston-Pittsburg game. It is the best proof yet furnished of the value of the discovery.”34
In that game Galvin pitched a two-hit shutout and was uncharacteristically successful at the plate. Abrams takes the article at face value, connecting Galvin’s participation in the trial with his success in the following game, in the process defying the long-held and correct notion that correlation does not imply causation.
The Brown-Séquard elixir was invented in 1889 by Charles Brown-Séquard, a French-American doctor. The elixir, which was injected, was based around extracts from guinea-pig and dog testicles and was apparently the first known modern treatment that contained testosterone. Abrams thus relates the elixir to the anabolic steroids that we know of today and ties Galvin to cheating and performance-enhancing drugs.
Abrams, however, fails to take into account the primitive nature of the Brown-Séquard elixir, which made it biologically ineffective according to scientific research published in 2002. The only possible benefit for Galvin, therefore, would have been a placebo effect. Moreover, the instance cited by Abrams appears to have been isolated. Abrams’ association of Galvin’s one-time use of the Brown-Séquard elixir in 1889 with modern-day steroid use is further undermined because the elixir was not banned by professional baseball. It is anachronistic to look back at Galvin’s one-time use of this elixir and consider it performance enhancement, cheating, or unethical behavior. Still, national news outlets and websites publicized and excerpted Abrams’ work, thus helping to slightly tarnish Galvin’s reputation and legacy.

This is certainly missing the point and putting up an odd defense by the author. It does not matter if it worked or not. Nor should his reputation be tarnished in anyway.

Intent is what should be measured and certainly he was hoping it would help him. If I either successfully or unsuccessfully rob a bank, the charges are the same.

What I believe is that when you are under pressure to be a professional athlete and a supplement is available that is legal that could better that effort then you are more likely than not to use it. This was what he was trying and what is logical for players of past. To discount that the same guys with candy dishes of speed and pain killers in the locker room next to the tobacco, sunflower seeds and bubble gum had some moral dilemma on a legal practice is absolutely silly.

There are plenty of accounts available if you look for them, but generationally those players are honestly less likely to be "rats" as the Jose's of the 90s that redirected attention every time it came to him by throwing people under the bus.

I just personally hold the notion that the "steroid era" was less of an increase in steroids but a change in user habits as they were using the healing properties in a more modern way for weight training recovery. They didn't just appear in 1987.

Lyle Alzado admitted he started using in college. Mind you this was 1967 at Yankton College in the NAIA in South Dakota. Let's hit some simple logic here, a 19 year old kid at a tiny no-name college in 1967 can find steroids with no effort but a professional athlete in the MLB can't? There is no logical argument to say that based on high moral grounds they ignored it. In all likelihood it was far more common than ever as it was not tested for and probably on par with the other drug use. That is my opinion of course, but I consider it not an excessive leap of faith.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Agreed, if it is not illegal and easy to get would he be doing his job if he didn't? A two minute google tells you that he got that abcess from Jacobson...the exact guy who had the president on methamphimines. His shot mixtures were well known and had animal hormones and steroids.

This is interesting. Could you tell me more about this story? So Mantle was having some issues and the Yankees sent him to see this doctor, and then he developed an abscess from the injection - was this a one time thing? Did Mantle see this doctor in the past? What about the other guys on the team? I need more information.

[TUM301]

Not sure who took what when, launch angles, WAR, MPH off the bat etc. etc, but give me my all time favorite Harmon Killebrew in today`s HR derby against anyone else I`ve seen.

[jsq]

feller could throw over 100, pretty awesome.
before his injury mantle could run from home plate to first base in 3.1, whos the fastest today? 3.4?
ruth hit more home runs than ANY OTHER TEAM in what, 1921 or so.
jimmy foxx, the beast.
likewise as commented already, what training and what diet did these pre 1970 era guys live on.
still, it is fun to compare. i can't wait for time travel, it will be a blast.