Is 3000 hits a big deal or overrated?

[1952boyntoncollector]

I do appreciate that Ichiro didnt take like 20 years to do it like others which would be more easy but still

Isnt total bases the true measuring stick

Id rather honor a guy for example with 2500 hits but 5000 total bases compared to a guy with 3000 hits with 4000 total bases because of a bunch of 2 out slap singles....this assumes the RBI total is also greater for the guy with 5000 total bases.

I thought a walk is as good as a hit as well at least in little league. so maybe we should be honoring someone with 7000 total bases or whatever amount that there would be only 30 players that were able to get to whatever that number would be...

Incidentally i just checked the total base leaders..and number 1 was a little a shy of 7000..(hank aaron 6856) Number 30 would be Andre Dawson. Babe Ruth would be number 7..he was shy of 3000 hits..does it matter??

http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...B_career.shtml


Ichiro is 106th all time ranked in total bases...Chili Davis is 100th 42 bases ahead...i think should be a big celebration if Ichiro is top 100! Have a total bases countdown and wear shirts... plus ichiro is like 128 away from 4000 total bases..lets start the countdown

[bravos4evr]

Well.... 3000 hits is just a number that, because humans like even numbers, we decided carries some special meaning. It really doesn't. BUT, it's still a big moment in a player's career and has happened rare enough for it to be a decent career gauge.

HOWEVER, that being said, it isn't a very good yardstick for productivity as all hits are not created equal. 3000 Ichiro hits have not had the same value as 3000 Clemente hits. Power matters.

Now, as to your idea about using Total Bases, it's ok I guess, but there are better numbers to use to get an overall picture of a hitter's merit. Weighted Runs Created + measures each hit individually includes park and league adjustment and puts it all into a neat single number with 100 being avg. Take that number and then look at hits and you get a better picture of production that took place in the hits rather than gauging all hits equally. (example: Ichiro's wRC+ for his career is 105, 5% above avg, Clemente's was 129 or 29% above avg)

Another problem with hits and total bases is that total plate appearances matter too. Rose got 4256 hits to Cobb's 4189, but he did it over 15876 PA's to Cobb's 13072. It becomes obvious here that the so called" HIT KING" is nothing of the sort.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

Well.... 3000 hits is just a number that, because humans like even numbers, we decided carries some special meaning. It really doesn't. BUT, it's still a big moment in a player's career and has happened rare enough for it to be a decent career gauge.

HOWEVER, that being said, it isn't a very good yardstick for productivity as all hits are not created equal. 3000 Ichiro hits have not had the same value as 3000 Clemente hits. Power matters.

Now, as to your idea about using Total Bases, it's ok I guess, but there are better numbers to use to get an overall picture of a hitter's merit. Weighted Runs Created + measures each hit individually includes park and league adjustment and puts it all into a neat single number with 100 being avg. Take that number and then look at hits and you get a better picture of production that took place in the hits rather than gauging all hits equally. (example: Ichiro's wRC+ for his career is 105, 5% above avg, Clemente's was 129 or 29% above avg)

Another problem with hits and total bases is that total plate appearances matter too. Rose got 4256 hits to Cobb's 4189, but he did it over 15876 PA's to Cobb's 13072. It becomes obvious here that the so called" HIT KING" is nothing of the sort.

right plate appearence matters when they count hits too...plus 162 games a year versus before.....NBA has cool states because it goes by averages ...20.2 points per game etc..they dont go by total points in a season....

but not cool to be a 1.3 hit per game hitter...... i not into round numbers...i dont mind have a lot of 9s instead of 0s...

[MattyC]

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake.

Same... And it is not about total bases since those favors the sluggers. The name of the game is getting on base and avoiding outs. It's this line of reasoning that will get Tim Raines in the hall soon. Having said that 3000 hits is still a huge accomplishment.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake.

LOL +1, I saw the title and I knew immediately who started it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake.

LOL when i saw your post which contributes zero and just attacks someone thats making a case for something and not bad intentioned at all i know it had to be another bnorth post...congrats you did not disappoint

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake.

Great point Ben, what's the freaking use? It's like arguing with a wooden indian....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

Whats your point? I made the case about total bases versus hits....why all of the sudden are you arguing that im saying 3000 hits is worthless and asking about if i played in the show

so if wade boggs told you than 3000 hits isnt a big deal, you would change your mind..or adam greenberg since he got 1 ab..whatever he says about baseball is right compared to you because you didnt play in the show? why go there....look at my post......it just compares total bases to hits....man, whats the deal.

and what bravosforever stated....what clemente did for his 3000 hits blows away ichiro...yet we grouping them in the same category as an equal accomplishment...

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Whats your point? I made the case about total bases versus hits....why all of the sudden are you arguing that im saying 3000 hits is worthless and asking about if i played in the show

so if wade boggs told you than 3000 hits isnt a big deal, you would change your mind..or adam greenberg since he got 1 ab..whatever he says about baseball is right compared to you because you didnt play in the show? why go there....look at my post......it just compares total bases to hits....man, whats the deal.

and what bravosforever stated....what clemente did for his 3000 hits blows away ichiro...yet we grouping them in the same category as an equal accomplishment...

Yes, 3000 hits a big deal. You are comparing apples to oranges. Ichiro is a top of the order guy. His job is to get on base. I will take his 3000 hits over 2500 with 5000 tb, for his position in the lineup. I don't care if many of those 3000 are infield hits. It is the guys behind him whose job it is to drive him in. You also ignore that his speed is going to make up for some of those total bases by taking extra bases on other's hits.

I would take Ichiro over Thome for the top of the order. The only way I take Thome is if I have others just as good as getting on base and he is an upgrade over my middle of the lineup guys. Ichiro is also a good fielder. Thome is not.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

appeal to authority logical fallacy (but yes I did, and was good at it til my arm fell off)

and it's an ok deal, but it's not some mark of greatness without the context of how it was done. Mostly it's a sign of longevity. A player's productivity can not be described by the blunt instrument of how many hits they got.

[RTK]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

Agree on all points. 200 hits a year for 15 years. Playing 15 years is an accomplishment, then averaging 200 hits per 500 some to 600 at bats. It's about endurance and perserverance as much as athletic ability.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by RTK

Agree on all points. 200 hits a year for 15 years. Playing 15 years is an accomplishment, then averaging 200 hits per 500 some to 600 at bats. It's about endurance and perserverance as much as athletic ability.

I agree as well its an accomplishment..just not as good as some other and its celebrated too much in comparison. 4500 total bases takes in account endurance and preserverance as much as atheltic ability on a grander scale.....i already gave ichiro credit for doing it in less than 20 years like many other 3000 hit guys which makes their accomplishments pale in comparison even more to the top 30 total base guys

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

+1....A player averages 200 hits per year for 15 years and that's not a huge accomplishment?? Please.....People that argue this simply don't know baseball, period....Of course you do have to factor in the OP.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

+1....A player averages 200 hits per year for 15 years and that's not a huge accomplishment?? Please.....People that argue this simply don't know baseball, period....Of course you do have to factor in the OP.

None isnt saying its a great accomplishment, i am saying total bases matters more and gets zero interest

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

+1....A player averages 200 hits per year for 15 years and that's not a huge accomplishment?? Please.....People that argue this simply don't know baseball, period....Of course you do have to factor in the OP.

this is so funny, it's the flat earther's arguing that "anyone who thinks the earth is round obviously are stupid" lmao!!!!!

sorry, 3000 hits doesn't mean jack. It just doesn't. you can stomp your feet and whine until you turn blue and it doesn't change a thing. Your viewpoint is simply antiquated and wrong and based on a fundamental misunderstanding of baseball. (which, isn't really your fault, bad information was preached as gospel by lot's of so called "experts" for a long time, but we evolve, we learn we understand more and more now than ever before, and 3000 hits ,in and of itself, simply isn't an indicator of production. hitting 5% above avg isn't all that great.)

[Eric72]

One last thing...while there is no rule about posting images of cards, I think that a hundred or so posts without one is too many. Enjoy the '56 Mantle, everyone.