Let’s rank top 10-15 T206 Players

[Rhotchkiss]

It’s a gross, rainy day in DC. Thankfully football is on, but I am still bored. So why not start a thread. Here goes:

(Open for discussion): I am assuming the following are the best 9 players who have a card in the t206 set. Not the best t206 cards, the best players. I say 9 bc after Plank, I cant think of who I would put at 10.

1. Cobb
2. Wagner
3. Johnson
4. Mathewson
5. Young
6. Speaker
7. Lajoie
8. E Collins
9. Plank

So who are the next 6 best players, making up 10-15? Here is my ranking:

10. Crawford
11. Clarke
12. Tinker
13. Chance
14. Keeler
15. Dahlen

[jsfriedm]

A couple of names that I would put ahead of most of those on your 10-15 list:

Ed Walsh
Mordecai Brown
Frank Baker (vastly underrated; best third baseman before Eddie Matthews. I tend to think about the American league star cohort that came up between 1905-1910 as similar to the young National League cohort of 1951-1956, i.e. Cobb, Speaker, Collins vs. Mays, Aaron, Robinson. Baker is like the Ernie Banks of the group - through 1960, he was every bit as good as Mays or Aaron, just like Baker was through 1914)

[ClementeFanOh]

Intriguing thread! I'd make sure Hal Chase has a spot though. Trent King

[Luke]

I love this topic. I agree with your top 10, and I think Crawford belongs there as a lock. From 11-40 I'm really not sure what the order should be.

Some contenders for #11 in my opinion:

Davis
Keeler
Walsh
Brown
Joss
Baker
Dahlen
McGinnity
Wheat
Waddell

And then how to rank Chance, Clarke, Griffith and McGraw who were great players and iconic managers/executives?

[Peter_Spaeth]

11-15 Keeler, Waddell, Walsh, Brown, Baker.

[Scocs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

11-15 Keeler, Waddell, Walsh, Brown, Baker.

+1

[Baseball Rarities]

1. Cobb
2. Johnson
3. Wagner
4. Young
5. Speaker
6. Mathewson
7. Collins
8. Lajoie
9. Plank
10. Waddell
11. Crawford
12. Brown
13. Baker
14. Keeler
15. Walsh

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

It’s a gross, rainy day in DC. Thankfully football is on, but I am still bored. So why not start a thread. Here goes:

(Open for discussion): I am assuming the following are the best 9 players who have a card in the t206 set. Not the best t206 cards, the best players. I say 9 bc after Plank, I cant think of who I would put at 10.

1. Cobb
2. Wagner
3. Johnson
4. Mathewson
5. Young
6. Speaker
7. Lajoie
8. E Collins
9. Plank

So who are the next 6 best players, making up 10-15? Here is my ranking:

10. Crawford
11. Clarke
12. Tinker
13. Chance
14. Keeler
15. Dahlen

I agree with your top 9, but I think Tinkers, Evers, and Chance are very close to each other and would be part of a 3rd Tier, along with Clarke, Keeler (Keeler had few dominant seasons and was not a great fielder) and others.

My 10 through 15 would be:
10) Walsh (although I think a lot of his success was b/c of his spitball)
11) Waddell
12) "Home Run" Baker
13) Joe McGinnity
14) TIE between George Davis (put up a career WAR of 84.5), Sam Crawford and Bill Dahlen.

Honorable Mentions: Had Addie Joss lived a little longer, he'd likely be up there too, Vic Willis (put up a WAR of 8 ore more 4x), and Mordecai Brown

[MVSNYC]

I think many of these players are interchangeable...but most of us have the same guys...

1. Cobb
2. Young
3. Wagner
4. Johnson
5. Mathewson
6. Speaker
7. Collins
8. Lajoie
9. Plank
10. Waddell

11. Crawford
12. M. Brown
13. Chesbro
14. Keeler
15. Wheat

[sreader3]

Based on career WAR:

1 Johnson
2 Young (not Irv)
3 Cobb
4 Speaker
5 Wagner (not Heinie)
6 Collins (not Jimmy)
7 Lajoie
8 Mathewson
9 Plank
10 Davis (not Harry)
11 Wallace
12 Crawford
13 Dahlen
14 Walsh
15 Griffith

Time to start hoarding T206 Davis Chicago !?!?!?

To be fair, there is a big drop-off in WAR between Matty and Plank. So there is really a top eight and then everyone else.

[rats60]

1. Wagner
2. Cobb
3. Johnson
4. Young
5. Mathewson
6. Speaker
7. Collins
8. Lajoie
9. Plank
10. Keeler

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

1. Wagner
2. Cobb
3. Johnson
4. Young
5. Mathewson
6. Speaker
7. Collins
8. Lajoie
9. Plank
10. Keeler

If memory serves Bill James ranked Wagner above Cobb.

[Robextend]

1. Cobb
2. Johnson
3. Wagner
4. Mathewson
5. Young
6. Speaker
7. Waddell
8. Lajoie
9. Plank
10. Collins

[quinnsryche]

1. Cobb
2. Wagner
3. Lajoie
4. Johnson
5. Mathewson
6. Young
7. Speaker
8. Collins
9. Joss
10. Waddell
11. Plank
12. Crawford
13. Wheat
14. Brown
15. Walsh

[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If memory serves Bill James ranked Wagner above Cobb.

So did Sam Crawford.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If memory serves Bill James ranked Wagner above Cobb.

Bill James ranked Wagner #2 behind only Ruth. He ranked Cobb #5.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

So did Sam Crawford.

Indeed he did. Glory of Their Times.

[oldjudge]

I don’t collect T206s but if I did this would be my list:

Cobb
Wagner
Johnson
Young
Mathewson
Speaker
Collins
Lajoie
Plank

[Bridwell]

I took a different take on Ryan's post. Which T206 players were the most highly regarded in the 1908-1911 timeframe? For example, Cy Young was nearing the end of his great career. Also Waddell, Chesbro, Clarke, J. Collins, and a few others. A few others were great, but still in the early phase of their careers. My ratings are influenced by their fame and the recognition of their greatness by the fans and their peers at the time when T206 were produced and distributed:

1. Wagner
2. Cobb
3. Johnson
4. Mathewson
5. Lajoie
6. Walsh
7. Chase
8. Young
9. Speaker
10. E. Collins
11. Crawford
12. Baker
13. M. Brown
14. Joss
15. Plank

Wagner was widely regarded as the best overall player, in part because the shortstop position was so vital during the deadball era.

[bigjaco]

Are we talking career or just during the t206 era?

If just the t206 era anyone missing Joss on their list of top 10 .. or top 3 of pitchers is just wrong.

[Bobbycee]

Nice thread, & good lists. But, how about when this is exhausted, we come up with the 10 WORST T206 players. Or, 10 players who should have been on a T206 card.

[RCMcKenzie]

I've heard a lot of people say that Evers was better than Tinker and Chance, but I really don't know. I never saw them play.

[Chuck9788]

Do any of these HOF players (below) that have not been mentioned on this thread stand a chance of cracking the Top #15 list?

Roger Bresnahan
Fred Clarke
Jimmy Collins
Hugh Duffy
Hughie Jennings
Joe McGinnity

[Bridwell]

I would say no. Some were stars much earlier than T206 era. Some were good managers and that helped their resume.

[Rhotchkiss]

As far as who was regarded as the best players of the era, during the era, I think we need look more further than the cards themselves. Presumably, they printed the most examples of the best players. Here are players with 3 or more different t206 poses:

Hal Chase has 5 different T206s
Cobb, McGraw, and Tinker have 4 different T206s
A number of folks have 3 different T206s (HOFers listed first):
Mathewson
Lajoie
Young
Jennings
Bender
Evers
Chance
Willis
Brown
Marquard
Ames
Camnitz
Donlin
Larry Doyle
Lake (switched teams but diff pose)
Meyers (misspelled name but diff pose)
Mullin (misspelled name but diff pose)
Overall
Schlei
Seymour
Wiltse

Of course Wagner and Plank are exceptions. Then, Speaker, Young, and Johnson are very young/rookies. Duffy, McGinnity, Kelley, J Collins are very old and/or coaching only.

But those listed above are the players with 3 or more t206 poses, which one could surmise were the biggest stars of the day.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

As far as who was regarded as the best players of the era, during the era, I think we need look more further than the cards themselves. Presumably, they printed the most examples of the best players. Here are players with 3 or more different t206 poses:

Hal Chase has 5 different T206s
Cobb, McGraw, and Tinker have 4 different T206s
A number of folks have 3 different T206s (HOFers listed first):
Mathewson
Lajoie
Young
Jennings
Bender
Evers
Chance
Willis
Brown
Marquard
Ames
Camnitz
Donlin
Larry Doyle
Lake (switched teams but diff pose)
Meyers (misspelled name but diff pose)
Mullin (misspelled name but diff pose)
Overall
Schlei
Seymour
Wiltse

Of course Wagner and Plank are exceptions. Then, Speaker, Young, and Johnson are very young/rookies. Duffy, McGinnity, Kelley, J Collins are very old and/or coaching only.

But those listed above are the players with 3 or more t206 poses, which one could surmise were the biggest stars of the day.

Jennings and McGraw were managers during the T206 era.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Jennings and McGraw were managers during the T206 era.

Ok, then eliminate them as “best players”

[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by Chuck9788

Do any of these HOF players (below) that have not been mentioned on this thread stand a chance of cracking the Top #15 list?

Roger Bresnahan
Fred Clarke
Jimmy Collins
Hugh Duffy
Hughie Jennings
Joe McGinnity

Clarke is #11 in the first post. I agree he's top 15.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

As far as who was regarded as the best players of the era, during the era, I think we need look more further than the cards themselves. Presumably, they printed the most examples of the best players. Here are players with 3 or more different t206 poses:

Hal Chase has 5 different T206s
Cobb, McGraw, and Tinker have 4 different T206s
A number of folks have 3 different T206s (HOFers listed first):
Mathewson
Lajoie
Young
Jennings
Bender
Evers
Chance
Willis
Brown
Marquard
Ames
Camnitz
Donlin
Larry Doyle
Lake (switched teams but diff pose)
Meyers (misspelled name but diff pose)
Mullin (misspelled name but diff pose)
Overall
Schlei
Seymour
Wiltse

Of course Wagner and Plank are exceptions. Then, Speaker, Young, and Johnson are very young/rookies. Duffy, McGinnity, Kelley, J Collins are very old and/or coaching only.

But those listed above are the players with 3 or more t206 poses, which one could surmise were the biggest stars of the day.

This would a list of who is most popular. Chase has 5 cards, but he wouldn't make a list of best players. I used the years 1908-10 and the best players during that period were
1 Mathewson
2 Walsh
3 Cobb
4 Wagner
5 Lajoie
6 Brown
7 Collins
8 Johnson
9 Tinker
10 Joss

Just missing are Young who would make it if it was 08-09 and Speaker who would make it if it was 09-10.

[TheBig6]

1.Cobb
2Johnson
3.Wagner
4.Mathewson
5.Speaker
6.Collins
7. Lajoie
8. Brown
9. Plank
10.Young / Keeler
I put Brown ahead of plank due to post season records.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by TheBig6

1.Cobb
2Johnson
3.Wagner
4.Mathewson
5.Speaker
6.Collins
7. Lajoie
8. Brown
9. Plank
10.Young / Keeler
I put Brown ahead of plank due to post season records.

Plank and Brown over Cy Young?

[TheBig6]

I thought it was dead ball layers, my bad

[TheBig6]

Originally Posted by G1911

Plank and Brown over Cy Young?

I just figured with half of Cy’s wins were in the 19th century. My opinion Plank and Brown were better in deadball era.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by TheBig6

I just figured with half of Cy’s wins were in the 19th century. My opinion Plank and Brown were better in deadball era.

I figured there was just some extra criteria being added that would make this reasonable. But then I’ve read some spicy takes on here…

Brown is fairly underrated in my book.

[Bridwell]

The NY players are over-represented with multiple poses. That doesn't tell me much about how great they were.

[Kutcher55]

What is the argument for putting Wagner above Cobb exactly?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

I figured there was just some extra criteria being added that would make this reasonable. But then I’ve read some spicy takes on here…

Brown is fairly underrated in my book.

Brown was only good for about 5 years, but not as good as Matty or Walsh during that period. He was good in the Cubs 2 WS wins, but pretty bad in their 2 WS losses. He was overshadowed by Tinker-Evers-Chance on his own team when he should have been seen as the star. That leads to Brown being a little underrated.

[Rhotchkiss]

Attached are career stats for each of (in order):

Ed Walsh
Eddie Plank
Mordecai Brown
Christy Mathewson

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

What is the argument for putting Wagner above Cobb exactly?

While Cobb was a better hitter than Wagner, Wagner's defense is the difference. Wagner played one of the two difficult positions on defense and he played it at a gold glove level. Cobb played an easy position in the outfield and was below average. Honus Wagner was the best hitter in the NL from 1900-1912 while being one of the best defensive players. That is why Bill James has him #2 behind only Babe Ruth, ahead of Mays, Cobb, Williams, etc.

[Bridwell]

In my view, Wagner had been a big star for many years when T206 came out. Ty Cobb was an up and comer. So based on 1909-1910 era, most players thought of Wagner as the best at that time. My list was based on stats and reputations up through 1911 so the stats after that are really a different type of list of the greatest players. I think by 1930, Cobb had surpassed Wagner.

[darwinbulldog]

1. Walter Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Ty Cobb
4. Tris Speaker
5. Honus Wagner
6. Eddie Collins
7. Christy Mathewson
8. Nap Lajoie
9. Eddie Plank
10. George Davis
11. Ed Walsh
12. Home Run Baker
13. Rube Waddell

[Leon]

This is a pretty good list.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

It’s a gross, rainy day in DC. Thankfully football is on, but I am still bored. So why not start a thread. Here goes:

(Open for discussion): I am assuming the following are the best 9 players who have a card in the t206 set. Not the best t206 cards, the best players. I say 9 bc after Plank, I cant think of who I would put at 10.

1. Cobb
2. Wagner
3. Johnson
4. Mathewson
5. Young
6. Speaker
7. Lajoie
8. E Collins
9. Plank

So who are the next 6 best players, making up 10-15? Here is my ranking:

10. Crawford
11. Clarke
12. Tinker
13. Chance
14. Keeler
15. Dahlen

.

[chjh]

This is a great thread. Enjoyable to read. I'd try and factor in both stats and impact on the game 100 years later. I'd rank as follows:

1. Cobb
2. Young
3. Wagner
4. Johnson
5. Mathewson
6. Plank
7. Lajoie
8. Speaker
9. Collins

[TobaccoKing4]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Attached are career stats for each of (in order):

Ed Walsh
Eddie Plank
Mordecai Brown
Christy Mathewson

Missing WHIP (walks + hits per inning) which is highly regarded as the best indicator of a pitchers skill.

My personal rankings for pitchers would be

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Ed Walsh
Addie Joss
Mordecai Brown
Eddie Plank

Eddie Plank in my opinion is overrated at his prime compared to other players of the era. He was a phenomenal pitcher but only had one season with a WHIP under 1. He excelled at being a top of the line pitcher throughout his whole career and was very consistent though. From a purely statistical standpoint the other pitchers on the list were much better in their best seasons than Plank ever was.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by TobaccoKing4

Missing WHIP (walks + hits per inning) which is highly regarded as the best indicator of a pitchers skill.

My personal rankings for pitchers would be

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Ed Walsh
Addie Joss
Mordecai Brown
Eddie Plank

Eddie Plank in my opinion is overrated at his prime compared to other players of the era. He was a phenomenal pitcher but only had one season with a WHIP under 1. He excelled at being a top of the line pitcher throughout his whole career and was very consistent though. From a purely statistical standpoint the other pitchers on the list were much better in their best seasons than Plank ever was.

Forget Plank. Where do you have Cy Young if not in the top 6?

[TobaccoKing4]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Forget Plank. Where do you have Cy Young if not in the top 6?

I completely forgot about him. Apparently I shouldn’t be making posts that early in the morning lol

I’d slot him in right behind WaJo.

Walter Johnson
Cy Young
Christy Mathewson
Ed Walsh
Addie Joss
Mordecai Brown
Eddie Plank