Seriously, how is this a 5?

Archive · #1 08-03-2006, 01:46 PM

Posted By: Mike

http://cgi.ebay.com/1914-Cracker-Jack-57-Walter-Johnson-PSA-5_W0QQitemZ280013839205QQihZ018QQcategoryZ31718QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Archive · #2 08-03-2006, 01:55 PM

Posted By: joe

Some staining here. Also, off center, I thought PSA put O/C on this type of card.

Joe

Archive · #3 08-03-2006, 01:56 PM

Posted By: dennis

if it were centered it would probably be ex/mt. i'd love to have it!

Archive · #4 08-03-2006, 05:31 PM

Posted By: Cat

I used to own this card. I'll post pictures of it in an SGC 30 holder later. It also has a small rip on the lower right hand border as well.

Archive · #5 08-03-2006, 06:02 PM

Posted By: Cat

Archive · #6 08-03-2006, 06:35 PM

Posted By: quan

u know who bought the card from u?

Archive · #7 08-03-2006, 07:03 PM

Posted By: Cat

Quan:

It was bought by EBay handle "Cards711" who is from ZIP code 16063. Shortly thereafter it was in Wayne Varner's store (who is also from ZIP 16063 so I assume it may be one of his or his purchaser's handles). I don't know how it got from Wayne Varner to this guy on the West Coast. As you will see by the link below (the pictures are gone), I auctioned the card straight up and got killed...one of those cards that if I knew it was going to go so cheap, I would have just kept it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=57993&item=8800512866

Archive · #8 08-03-2006, 07:23 PM

Posted By: cmoking

Sounds like it got into a PSA holder during the National (cert starts with 500).

Archive · #9 08-03-2006, 07:25 PM

Posted By: quan

cat don't remember if i saw the card in varner's case on wednesday or not (he had too many caramel cards for me to notice)...but from the serial it was probably graded at the national show...oh well w/o the tear i'd say it's a 4, but with the tear and it's a 5...big YUCK.

Archive · #10 08-03-2006, 07:28 PM

Posted By: David Vargha

It's hard to tell from the scan, but the tear looks "repaired".

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

Archive · #11 08-03-2006, 07:36 PM

Posted By: Cat

Quan: I looked for you on Wednesday, but somehow our paths didn't cross. I think I would have noticed the card in Varner's case, but don't recall seeing it either. When it was in his Ebay store, it was still in the SGC holder. Perhaps he broke it out for the National and if he did I may have glanced right over it.

Archive · #12 08-03-2006, 07:49 PM

Posted By: Cat

It does look repaired. That might give PSA a small excuse for putting this in a 5 holder.

By the way, I met DavidVargha at the Dinner and that story about him being a one armed gay midget is BS! HE HAD BOTH ARMS!!

Archive · #13 08-03-2006, 07:56 PM

Posted By: anthony

Cat: does that mean he is a gay midget?? lol...(wide open)

just a note from the nationals...out of all the dealers i met and saw, wayne is probably the last guy i would of pictured as a card collector...good thing we dont judge a book by it's cover!

Archive · #14 08-03-2006, 08:42 PM

Posted By: T206Collector

...for your loss here. This is just terrible. But it is a beautiful addition to my "PSA Gaffes" folder. Which brings me to a little hobby of mine -- keeping photos of PSA Gaffes like this. If anyone has any others that they'd like to share, please e-mail them to me at pmifsud3d@gmail.com.

Thanks.

Archive · #15 08-04-2006, 09:51 AM

Posted By: ShoeboxCards

I would just like to take a minute to respond to this thread. First, cards711 is one of the names we use on eBay to purchase cards and we did purchase this card. It was not our fault this card went so cheaply on eBay and in fact we had a higher sniper bid in on the card. We did have this card on our web site and also in our eBay store and the card was still in the SGC 30 (good) holder. We had the card at the National, again in the SGC 30 (good) holder, and the card was sold to a customer at the National. The card was undergraded in our opinion and I had the card priced closer to a VG price. Several customers commented on how attractive the care was for the grade. Apparently the customer who purchased the card from us either felt the card was undergraded by SGC or just wanted the card in a PSA holder and had it graded at the National. I can assure you that Shoebox Cards never broke the card out of the holder and never had it regraded. I can also tell you that callofduty2005 is not Shoebox Cards and does not have any affiliation with Shoebox Cards. If you notice they are located in California where the National was held. I can also tell you that the card still looks to have the nick in the bottom right hand corner and doesn't look like it has been altered to me. If anyone is trying to accuse us of altering this card or just getting it graded at a higher level I would suggest you reconsider your statements. Thank you. Wayne Varner, Shoebox Cards.

Archive · #16 08-04-2006, 10:00 AM

Posted By: David Vargha

Wayne, I don't think anyone was accusing you of shenanigans. I know that I sure wasn't.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

Archive · #17 08-04-2006, 10:09 AM

Posted By: Joe D.

I inquired about the card when you had it, and you were a gentleman with all of our communications.

I believe you when you say there was no wrong doing on your part. And honestly, I don't think there has been any wrong doing from whoever purchased the card from you. It doesn't look altered to me... and what is the problem with a second opinion from another grader?

I see no issue with going to a competing grader on any card for a re-grade. That ability is a plus to the industry.

All of that aside... and more on topic to the initial post....

That card is not a 5 and has been seriously overgraded by PSA (by two grades at least).

Thats how I see it anyway.

Archive · #18 08-04-2006, 10:18 AM

Posted By: Spencer

I know CallofDuty had the '14 Cracker Jack Joe Jackson PSA 4 on ebay a few months ago, which they won at auction raw from Hunt's. I had two psa graded '14 CJ's at the national that I had reviewed, and both were upped a grade, though I think it should have been two grades higher. Too many cards to grade in too short of a time at the national perhaps, I hope. Hey T206, are you going to post your list of PSA graded f___k ups? I know you love my Wagner...Brutal 5, but if it goes cheap, I'll buy the holder just for the hell of it.

Archive · #19 08-04-2006, 10:31 AM

Posted By: cmoking

the only one to blame for that card in a PSA 5 holder is PSA. I wouldn't blame anyone else, including whoever submitted the card to PSA.

Archive · #20 08-04-2006, 10:43 AM

Posted By: quan

i wasn't talking or insinuating you cracked out the card at all, you were probably too busy selling out ur inventory to be doing that. when buying i always try to look at the cards to see if they're undergraded, but thinking 3 and getting 5 is over the top.

Archive · #21 08-04-2006, 12:02 PM

Posted By: T206Collector

...to anyone that cracks cards and sends them to PSA for higher grades. I do not trust the accuracy of pre-war grading by PSA, and so I choose SGC. But if someone strikes gold crossing over to PSA, that is there choice.

"Hey T206, are you going to post your list of PSA graded f___k ups? I know you love my Wagner"

I do have a T206 Wagner that is Heinie in my collection of scans. I have been copying images for a little while. I don't hunt for them -- I don't even buy PSA cards, so I would never have a chance to discover new ones on my own -- but when I see a good one, usually shown on this board, I try to copy it. I think they make for a good blooper real when you look at them all at once.

Archive · #22 08-04-2006, 12:40 PM

Posted By: quan

to say that psa is not "accurate" in their pre-war grading and putting ur faith in sgc 100% is a ludicrous statement.

Archive · #23 08-04-2006, 12:45 PM

Posted By: eatturf

I'll preclude that I know BVG doesn't get the vintage respect. That's fine, whatever. I still use them for protection purposes. Here is a link where a collector cross graded 440 PSA 9 to BVG.
Pretty startling results. I know I sound like an ad for Beckett, though not intended. Just trying to add to the discussion.

http://www.beckett.com/iforum/view.asp?mode=viewtopic&topicID=1134899&forumID=69&catID=15&forumPageNo=1

Archive · #24 08-04-2006, 03:42 PM

Posted By: T206Collector

The Beckett crossover is interesting, but since "All 440 cards are Topps football from the mid-1970's," the analysis is really of little use for pre-war collectors.

With respect to using SGC 100% for pre-war, it doesn't take long (or a rocket scientist) to become disappointed with PSA graded T206 cards when you regularly purchase them on ebay. Too often have I received 5's with creases, wrinkles or evidence of trimming. My experience was confirmed by SGC when I attempted to crossover 40 PSA graded T206 cards that I had randomly accumulated over a 5 or so year period. 10 of those cards came back as either lesser grade or altered. The reasons for the lesser grade were either wrinkles, creases or tiny bits of paper loss. These are not problems that I have encountered with SGC T206 card purchases. If it becomes a problem, I will be sure to complain to SGC and get my fair market value in return for the overgraded card. But, again, this has not been an issue thus far since SGC has consistently met my expectations for what a certain grade looks like. If anything, they have undergraded cards.

Archive · #25 08-04-2006, 04:31 PM

Posted By: quan

personally i've had more disappointments with sgc card than psa, in term of being overgraded and altered. i would love to show some examples but i don't make a special folder for them. some sgc cards in major auctions are also head-scratchers. so you like sgc, we get it. every companies make mistakes, to completely negate one while hailing and praising the other endlessly is just lame.

Archive · #26 08-04-2006, 04:53 PM

Posted By: Richard

If t206 took his sgc cards and quan took his psa cards over to beckett, their 5's would come back 4's and everyone would be pissed

Archive · #27 08-04-2006, 05:06 PM

Posted By: quan

np rman, i'd take them straight to gai and get 6.5s

Archive · #28 08-04-2006, 06:19 PM

Posted By: sagard

So to those who have held the card in their hand should it be a "3" or a "4"? Or was the "2" warranted?

It seems disappointing that both somewhat trusted grading companies would whiff by a full grade or more in opposite directions on the same card.

People hate buying overgraded cards. I would HATE to have sent that card in to SGC and find out later that almost any other day it would have got the VG grade.

Archive · #29 08-04-2006, 06:29 PM

Posted By: ShoeboxCards

It was better than a SGC 30 good!

Archive · #30 08-04-2006, 07:17 PM

Posted By: Cat

I owned the card for about 2 1/2 years and it was a nice card, but since it had the small tear I would have never expected it to be above a 30. It is one of the beauties of their (all graders) grading standards, no matter what they normally won't grade a card with a tear above a 30 even if it is insignificant to the beauty of the card.

If I only knew it was going to sell for $1,036 I would still own the dang thing. That is not to say I have any animouosity to ShoeBoxCards, since without their bid it would have possibly went for close to $150 less. My loss is Wayne's gain... win some lose some (end of my cliche-speak ).

Archive · #31 08-04-2006, 08:12 PM

Posted By: WP

A card with a tear should not grade higher than a 2/30. But is the tear still there?

Archive · #32 08-04-2006, 10:11 PM

Posted By: Josh K.

I agree - as nice as a card may look, if it has a tear or paperloss, its no better than a 30. Its sometimes painful, but at least sgc is consistent.

I also completely agree with T206 on his assessment of psa and sgc. Yes, both companies make mistakes, but I see far more by psa than any other company. Imagine my disappointment after winning a lot of e93s (along with a few others)in the last mastro auction after receiving the cards and seeing the extent of paperloss and creasing on many of the psa 3s and 4s.

I would rather take my lumps with sgc as well.

Archive · #33 08-05-2006, 07:30 AM

Posted By: T206Collector

I really do not want to get into another PSA/SGC fight. This thread is about a PSA graded card, and I was just adding my 2 cents, albeit the same 2 cents about SGC that I regularly add on threads like this.

But, it seems to me that the phrase "every companies make mistakes" is most often made by those that favor PSA. And while I agree with that, at least I am confident SGC will rectify those mistakes. Take a mislabeled A.O. Dutch Jordan that SGC mislabeled Tim Jordan Batting. I complained that they did the label wrong, they said send it in and we'll fix it for free. That was all well and good, but then they sent it back with a new label but, yup, you guessed it, put Tim's name back on it. At this point, I called and was a little bit agitated -- how much shipping did I have to spend to keep getting the wrong label put on the card. They apologized, and said that I should send it back with two other cards I'd like graded for free. That is the kind of customer service I am looking for, not to mention consistency and accuracy in grading.

Again, if you collect PSA cards long enough, and really study the condition of the cards, it won't take long for you to get more disappointed with them than your SGC cards.

The only argument that I once heard that made some sense to me is that I think cmoking once said that SGC graded corner wear more liberally than PSA. He said it was readily apparent in the 1933 Goudey set. Since I am the proud owner of an SGC 60 1933 Lefty Grove with fuzzy corners but no creasing that once lived in a PSA 4 holder, I can see his point to some degree. But to me, an EX 5 card can have fuzzy corners, but should have no wrinkles or creases. I've had way too many PSA 5 cards with wrinkles and creases.

Finally, I would be interested in collecting images of SGC errors, too. It just seems to me that they are few and far between.

Archive · #34 08-11-2006, 08:05 PM

Posted By: Cat

Boy...does the final price show that people really do buy holders and not cards.