A question regarding the Mastro trimmed card thread

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Posted By: jackgoodman

Ok, it's early here on the West Coast, so excuse my rambling manner.

I was thinking about the recent Mastro thread that outed the trimmed card in their current auction. And it got me thinking.

If I were the consignor (and I'll assume the consignor was innocent of doing the actual trimming, for purposes of this comment), should I be upset with Mastro about their adding the additional comment on my card? Should that "upset" result in my pulling that card from their consignment as well as all other cards I consigned to them?

I mean, I gave them a card graded by one of the reputable grading companies, and rather than list the card as graded, they have decided to add their opinion of that grade. Is that their place to do?

And if so, should every auction house now add an additional line to the description of every graded card they ever auction that reads: "We agree with the grade assigned to this card" or "we do not agree with the grade assigned to this card for the following reasons."

I mean, we have all discussed the fact that trimming is most often an opinion that can differ from grading company to grading company and individual to individual. In this case, the card was submitted graded. I would frankly be very upset if the auction house took it upon themselves to probably cost me substantial dollars by adding their opinion.

From the prior thread discussion, it seems everyone is pleased with the action taken by Mastro. Would you still be pleased if they had decided to add their opinion to a card you had consigned? Does any of the above make sense?

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Posted By: Steve M.

You make a great point. I would only have to assume that Mastro advised the seller of the concerns expressed by all of the "experts" on this board and received permission from the consignor to edit the listing. If not, if it was my consignment I would be real unhappy.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I think Mastro did the right thing here. It accepted a card slabbed by one of the major slabbers on faith, which is a reasonable thing to do. It then listened to the evidence that the card had been sold before as small and might be even smaller and sharper now. It noted the size discrepancy for potential bidders, and ultimately decided not to carry the card in its auction.

For those of you who are critical of Mastro on this: Would you prefer than Mastro or any other auction house ignore what it is told and simply rely blindly on PSA? Aren't we always saying "buy the card not the holder?" If so, isn't Mastro doing exactly what we ask it to do?

As for the consignor, assuming his or her innocence with regard to any alterations of the card, nevertheless, he or she would have been rewarded unjustly if the card sold for $10k and it had in fact been altered. Why should the auction buyer be stuck with it instead? Is that a better outcome?

The sad thing is that this card is in a PSA holder and will likely end up in the inventory of a dealer who doesn't know this board or in the collection of a collector who isn't aware of us.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Very interesting position, Adam, coming from a person who admits that he alters, cleans and restores his own cards from his collection and does not care whose collection they end up in after his death. Assuming cards are not sold well before that anticipated day.

I bought the card knowing it was undersized and still felt it was a fair deal considering what I had sold a poor BL460 for 3 or 4 years ago for 1300. The card was submitted to PSA with "AUTH HOLDER" written on the line on the submission form, which I still have, as well as a post it note placed on the protectos itself asking for the card to be placed in an Authentic holder if deemed to be trimmed.

Mastro contacted me to tell me they had to adjust the description, which I agreed to. I then asked for the card to be removed from the auction. You know I am the one who bought the card and your comment about the card now being sharper (which it isn't) or smaller (which it isn't) is completely inappropriate and it comes without having an image of the card that was posted with the auction. As an "attorney" I would think you would be more careful in making inferences like that absent much needed facts. Only slightly irresponsible.

So you see your time would be far better spent, my hypocritical malcontent, trying to procure some clients so that you can bill more than 75K during this calendar year. In other words, get the F off of my ass, immediately.

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Posted By: walkscott

It's applaudable that Mastro did this. Also, as technology and techniques for trimming improve (and it's inevitable), it will be tougher and tougher for grading companies to tell if a cards's been trimmed.

But what this all implies is that it is now up to a consignor to actually understand the state of the card within the plastic holder - no longer okay to accept the plastic and grade in good faith and pass perceived problems on to the next collector.

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Posted By: jackgoodman

Again, without sufficient proof (the earlier picture of the card with unquestionable proof that it is the same card for comparison to the submitted card), isn't Mastro only really listening to the opinion of others or adding their own opinion - on top of the opinion of the grading company. And again, trimming is an area where there can be honest disagreement.

And as asked above, should all auction houses then always add their opinion of the grade to their description?

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Posted By: leon

When you have an auction house with the absolute experts that Mastro does then I think you can offer an opinion. Bill Mastro (not that he probably looks at most cards beforehand), Kevin Struss, Derek Grady, Pete Calderon, Doug Allen, Ron Oser etc.......shall I keep going? Yes, I think they, and any auction house, should give their opinion, when they have sufficient expertise to do so. As far as pulling the card I don't blame either party. Also, I would prefer some more evidence when making statements about folks integrity. If it turns out either way, so be it, but to make blind statements is not fair....

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Posted By: walkscott

Well-said Leon - that's a long list of experts.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I didn't say the card was trimmed, Greg. Hal, Seth B, Dan McKee, Leon and Quan did on the other thread. I stated that Mastro "listened to the evidence that the card had been sold before as small and might be even smaller and sharper now". What evidence? The ebay listing says the card is 1 3/8" wide, which is small, and described it as "VG+ - EX with corner rounding". Quan stated: "interesting it went from VG+ to EX with "corner rounding" to 4 EXMT corners". Seth B. opined "this T206 is trimmed on all four sides". Hal stated "This card is clearly trimmed" and "My own dog's ears don't stick up like that" Leon stated "This is the kind of thing that makes me not like grading" Dan McKee stated "Card is blatantly trimmed" Mastro says "it appears to be a hair less than 1-3/8" wide". I opined that the card will likely end up in the inventory of a dealer who doesn't know this board or in the collection of a collector who isn't aware of us. Which is undoubtedly true.

Given all that was said about this card by all these other people, I find it really interesting that you single me out for attack instead of anyone else who posted in the 50+ posts in the 2 threads about this card. Why aren't you going after Leon, Dan, Hal, Seth and Quan? Why did you remain deafeningly silent until I chime in? It is apparent who's got a vendetta here. I could post that the sky is blue and you would contradict it just to pick a fight with me. I am finished with you and with this issue because it is clear where you are coming from.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Sorry, but I have to ask since we're on the topic of trimmed cards (avoiding the vendettas out there):


How freaking short is this card?

Compared to a seemingly regularly sized one of this issue:

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Posted By: leon

To me the top to bottom looks ok (bigger bottom smaller top) but the left to right looks narrower than most I see..

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon: looking at it the way you mentioned - you're totally right. The sides are much more egregious than the top and bottom.

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Posted By: Cobby33

If one of us had this card (suspecting it was trimmed (being confirmed by many experts on the subject), yet being slabbed in a PSA 6), how many of us would list it as a "PSA 6" with NQ, no if's and's and but's, on eBay?

P.S. Curious to know what's going to happen to the card now?

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Posted By: rob

I agree the biggest issue is the card went from being described as having rounded corners to basically four sharp ones. I think we all know that when describing an ungraded card, if anything, we can be a little generous in our descriptions. But there is no way this card (the one in the holder) would have been described as having rounded corners by the seller. This whole sitaution seems a little to a lot fishy for me.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Greg,

I also am curious why you have said nothing about this card up to this point when you were the winner of the card on ebay and many of us know that it is your ebay ID. If you sent it in to be authentic you obviously used your knowledge to make a decision when buying the card and when submitting the card. Why then were you willing to accept a PSA 6 grade and let some unknowing buyer buy a card that you purchased at a lesser rate and you personally felt the card had it's faults and there was no mention of it in the Mastro Auction.

These are a few concerning questions I have about this whole situation.

Lee

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Adam,

You may be done with me but I am far from done with you. Those people who you mention stated the card was trimmed based on an image of the card once in the PSA holder. Aside from tiny Quan, nobody until your post on this thread, inferred or suggested that the card is different in appearance since after my purchasing it. You really went to law school? Hmmm!!!!! You did not really need me to point that out to you, did you? You just wanted me to do more typing.

No vendetta here, you victimize yourself and invite this into your life. I might make a similar claim that it is you who has the vendetta or an agenda. Your entire collection is not worth what I paid for the card on ebay and it seems you have a special motivation to attack me on the boards. No need to be envious, Adam. I come in peace. Now get back to work on the appellate small claims case you were diligently preparing for.

Robertmike,

Guess you are new to grading and the hobby. The graders do not see the submission forms, generally, but the folks receiving the cards with submission forms enter the information from the submission forms, which the graders then see. If they didn't enter that info then there would be a whole lot of cards in boxes sitting in the receiving area. Isn't that neat how that works?

The card was undersized. I send cards to grading companies to grade the cards. That is not my job. Unlike most of you, I trust that PSA does a pretty good job. With my two notes they felt the card was legit and they graded it. Am I really to be expected to send the card back and make them break it out because a few dozen people here say the card is trimmed but have never seen the card? I know you expect me to do that because you too would do it. Please get off of your soapbox.

Rob,

Nice to meet you too. If the card really was VG how much more would one have to take off of the card to make it EXMT? Do you really know the difference between VG and EXMT? I am going to go out on a limb and say, NOT. I am not talking about the assigned numerical grade of 3 versus 6 or 40 versus 80. What big eggs you have from behind your computer. The card is in the same shape it was after I got it from ebay. You do not have the benefit of even seeing the scan prior to grading and I am thinking that you do not even possess the skills necessary to make the kind of determination you have, were you to have the scan.

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Posted By: Cobby33

What is the fate of the card?

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Lee,

Maybe you have been sleeping but I happen to be a board favorite when it comes to being crucified so I try to stay out of all threads. Frankly I did not feel I needed to answer to any of you as to anything that I do with regards to my business. I do feel that once my name starts getting trashed that I must do what anyone would do and defend myself. I know nobody else here will do so. Besides the link to the ebay auction, identifying me as the buyer, was not posted until late yesterday.

I bought the card assuming I could make a quick grand getting it into an Auth holder. There was no real expertise there Lee. I accepted the 6 grade as I gave PSA two notes about the card and they graded it anyway. Is it really my job to grade and authenticate all of PSA's work? I sell cards Lee, I do not grade them nor profess to know a fraction of what some of the graders know. I would not call myself an expert. I just know how to make money in this business.

If I had some clandestine plan for this card I surely would not have made the purchase under my own id. Please give me just a bit of credit. Also Mastro does not take descriptions from their consignors. Where did you get the idea that I got to participate in that aspect of the auction? Like most people, once the card is graded, right or wrong, not much more really needs to be said. There are cards that are strong for the grade or weak for the grade. If dealers and auction houses are now going to be required to regrade cards after they are professionally graded, why have the card graded?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If there is knowledge about a major issue with the item for sale, the issue has
to be addressed in the description. No two ways about it. If the issue is
big enough, it might be illegal not to.

Duly note that the auction has not started, so any rewritings are comparable to
normal pre-auction preparations.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Greg,

From your response to my questions it sure does not give me much confidence in buying from you. I would like to think that all the year you have been in the hobby you have learned to grade and be about to spot abnormalities to cards. I do believe you actually have more experience than most of the graders in any of these companies. All I see from your response is that you are are for the almighty dollar and if that is the case you better be willing to take the criticism that comes with it.

I am sorry to see your response to this whole situation.

Lee

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Yes Lee, I am a dealer. This is what I do for a living and I try to make as much money as possible. I was not aware that I was not supposed to do that. I also happen to collect. I don't mind criticism but I do take issue with being accused of things which are not true and being accused of these acts by people who have agendas and no facts. Writing or inferring that I trimmed the card is not criticism, is it? I call that slander. Much different than criticism.

You do not have to buy from me. None of you do. However all of you do and you just do not know it. I sell cards through virtually every auction house and countless ebay ids.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Greg- just out of curiosity, why countless ebay id's? Why not just one?

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Posted By: andy becker

greg,
now that the jig is up, why don't you just reholder the card (or don't), sell it, break even...make a few bucks....or loose a few bucks, and move on.

what's the point of berating everyone that has an opinion.
if i sold cards for a living (i don't), i would be very concerned about my reputation within the vintage community.

you obviously don't care, but this isn't a real good job of pr.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

"I would be wary of bidding on any material that would be suspectible to altering from a consignor suspected of engaging in shady practices"



Does this not call into ? the whole premise of grading....again.

Look if this is an issue with one of the bigger dealers of high $ cards. Than whose safe buying online regardless of grading company.
At least a scan of an ungraded card is somewhat easier to determine altering than one slabbed.

Than when you think of the auction house's. Whose stuff is it. At least with Ebay i used to THINK i knew who i was buying from. But another issue to worry about with that admission.

I hate when i need to think about this stuff.

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Posted By: leon

I would like to remind everyone they are legally liable for what they say on the board. IP addresses are very easily traced so please keep all of this in mind when posting accusations. I also know the rights of a moderator very well, thank you. I prefer to think this was an honest situation....but to each their own. For the record I have known Greg (hi Greg) for several years and have never had an issue doing business with him. The real problem here is PSA, imo..... Maybe they deemed it miscut and not trimmed? I don't know but it does look thin in the PSA holder.... Another thing.... Who here wouldn't be defensive if your character was called into play? I would be....

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Posted By: barrysloate

And yet despite all these threads we have questioning the integrity of the entire grading phenomenon- some of it good, some of it not- the hobby still demands that everything be third party graded. Then after it is graded, numerous cards are subject to relentless scrutiny and criticism. Is there something wrong with this picture?

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Robertmike

I did not think I had to write that I did not trim the card based on all else I wrote. There is nothing I could write that will appease you. You have your agenda and have already made up your mind.

I am no obsessive about keeping any pictures of cards I buy. I have spent a great deal of money on collections this year consisting of many rare cards. How much time and storage space would it take to scan every card I have buy? And why should I?

I did not post at all on the other thread but did so after Adam posted for the third or fourth time on the two threads and only after he inferred that I may have trimmed the card. His posting the auction was not what precipitated my response. Again, facts would really help your argument. Ever hear of them?

I am a frequent submitter to Mastro and have not been able to participate in my lots' descriptions, ever. If they are permitting you to do so then you are more privileged.

So why don't you tell us all what your real issue is with me? It cannot be this card. Feel free to email me privately, if you care.

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Posted By: leon

You have about 10 minutes to put your full name on the post or on the board......then you may continue....it's 9:06pm CST right now....I am not saying you are right or wrong but we need to know who you are....thanks much

for the record I deleted an anonymous post and one responding to it...it violated board rules

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Posted By: leon

Here is the card from the ebay description. It was sent to me by a board member and someone I trust.

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Posted By: PC

I don't get such favorable treatment from grading companies -- the chance of me submitting something as "Auth" and it coming back a 6 is nil.

On the other hand, I have submitted a card thinking it was a 6, and it came back rejected as trimmed.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I don't know anybody involved with this item.. Looking at both cards, objectively I would note that the Mastro card has had extensive stain removal and marked improvement to the left lower corner.

Frank

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Posted By: Jay

Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Ebay listing image isn't the curley cue on the right side of the back of the card clear of the edge? On the slabbed image it appears to be touching the edge.

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Posted By: leon

Please email me privately....thanks much

I have deleted all of Robert Mikes posts and he won't be posting anymore until he emails me, per the board rules..

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Leon wrote to me and asked if he could put up the image from ebay. My reply to him was "Yes please with my blessings." I thought you all were more observant but I was wrong. The ebay image was scanned significantly larger, darker and with entirely different color saturation, giving it a look of being a rendering or cartoonish (for a lack of a better term).

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Posted By: Cobby33

"You do not have to buy from me. None of you do. However all of you do and you just do not know it. I sell cards through virtually every auction house and countless ebay ids." "Frankly I did not feel I needed to answer to any of you as to anything that I do with regards to my business."

Maybe you should reveal your various ID's so that those of use who don't want to deal with such brazen personalities can beware? Though I wasn't taking sides when this thing began (in fact my posts suggested you did nothing queer), I'd rather not deal with someone who says that I don't have to buy from them, yet suggests that I don't really have a choice, since they have multiple personalities.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I'm not coming to anyones defense here but Greg didn't encapsulate the card in a 6 holder.

I'll be honest with you guys - If I had that card and I had doubts to whether or not it had been trimmed, I'd have probably done the same thing and let the grading service know that I wanted in in an AUTHENTIC holder if they thought it was trimmed. If that card came back to me in a 6 holder I'd have crapped my pants and I would have been overjoyed. Who wouldn't? At that point it becomes a personal delimma. If I personally felt the card was trimmed I would have hoped I would have made the right choice in doing the right thing. Greg, I'm not saying you did the wrong thing so please don't "rip my head off and crap down my throat" Obviously Greg must have felt that PSAs expertise is better his or he trusts PSA and was willing to live with their assesment.

You can't expect every auction house to inspect every card that is consigned to them but cards like this aren't your every day cards. Personally, if it were my auction company I'd have passed it around to the experts in the company for their opinions. In this case Mastronet at least did the right thing by posting the dimensions of the card in the description update. The description change was in red text so they did make sure that the readers were aware of the potential issue with the card.

The fact that the "potential" error by PSA was noticed by so many experienced collectors just goes to show that people are going to notice the green elephant at the zoo. It all boils down to knowing what you're buying before you pull the trigger.

Bottom line is that we should all just go straight to turning this into another PSA BASHING THREAD!!!

They're the ones that slabbed it!!!

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Greg,

Cobby 33 has asked a reasonable question can you please reveal all your indenties to us so WE may chose if we want to purchase from you?

Lee

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Jay,

Blown up, I can't be sure regarding the curly thing. But i think the corner is sharper. No doubt in my mind.

Maybe the slab is making it appear sharper.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Nothing wrong with my powers of observation. What does "cartoonish look" and "color saturation" have to do with stain removal and corner restoration? My comments referred to the significant left lower corner improvement and the absence of multiple stains on the PSA 6 card.

Frank

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Posted By: Scott

About the only thing you can truly compare between the two cards is the potential differences in the areas of wear on the front of the card. As for the corner, the first scan is of the card sitting on a piece of paper or cardboard...obviously the one in the auction is in a holder which could easily make the corner look sharper than it would be outside the holder.

To the benefit of the doubt, the first scan isn't very good and I wouldn't draw any conclusions about a card with the quality of that scan.

I would agree with Cobb33 that I thought the statement about you buy from me whether you know it or not to be an interesting way to build up customer's confidence.

I also find it somewhat interesting that te auction house hasn't been taken to task for having the card in the auction in the first place. If they know believe the card to be trimmed and mis-graded it would indicate that they do not inspect the goods that they are selling or do not do so very diligently.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

"the one in the auction is in a holder which could easily make the corner look sharper than it would be outside the holder."


Yes, but PSA graded the card raw and then appled the holder. No way that's a 6 just with that corner alone.

Frank

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Posted By: cmoking

Fred, I agree with you. However, you are assuming that if it was you in Greg's shoes, that you did not alter the card. It doesnt' look like everyone is making that same assumption.

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Posted By: Andy Cook

I don't know if the Broadleaf is trimmed, altered, or anything. My only input to this discussion is that I've dealt with Greg a number of times over the past several years, both as a buyer and seller, and every transaction has been positive.

Andy