OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

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Posted By: James Feagin

Off topic, but who cares. With days like this, baseball cards seem very meaningless. At least 22 dead when gunmen starts firing at West Ambler Johnston and Norris Hall at Blacksburg, Virginia. My complete, utter and total thoughts and prayers for the innocent. As for the gunman or men, burn in hell.

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Posted By: Richard L.

ABC news is now reporting 29 dead, what a tradegy.

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Posted By: Martin Neal

Senseless.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Fox news saying at least 32 dead. How very sad. I have many friends that attended VT...all of them are now graduated, but I'm sure many of them are in shock right now.

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Posted By: peter chao

It is an unimaginable tragedy, thirty-one young adults have died. It's a senseless shame. This is the reason that we play sports. It allows us to take out our agressions on the playing field. Can you imagine Barry Bonds with a gun, or Wilt Chamberlain with a gun. Thank God for sports.

Peter

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Posted By: Mike

^^^^^What???^^^^^

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Posted By: Jason L

That was kinda a weird statement...
I sort of know what you're saying,...but I also notice your comment didn't mention any football players, notorious for early morning mayhem.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jason L.,

Maybe I'm exaggerating the importance of sports. But how about Jesse Owens at Hitler's Olympic games. Wasn't he in fact showing the master race, that blacks could compete. If I'm totally off-base let me know. Without doubt the killings were a tragedy, but think of what this world would be like without the Olympics every four years.

Peter

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Posted By: Lyman

Kinda hits close to home since both of our kids (Brett and his sister) graduated from VT. My wife and I have visited many times. It is a beautiful campus set in the serene rolling hills of Southwestern Virginia. What an unlikely place for such a tragedy. --Lyman

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Posted By: joe brennan

I just enrolled my daughter into college yesterday. We think are children are safe.....

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Me too. Very very sobering.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

What on earth do the Olympics have to do with the tragedy at Va. Tech? Peter C., your posts are becoming increasingly bewildering to me.

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

My wife and I are both VT grads and several of our neighbors have kids that now attend the school. According to my wife, the neighborhood kids are accounted for, but as you can imagine there was a lot of nervous tension on the block today. I am still in a bit of shock about this.

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Posted By: barrysloate

This is the worst massacre in American history, and from what I understand, two students were killed early this morning; and at that point, the school thought it was over and allowed classes to resume. Then two hours later that gunman, or perhaps a different one, chained the doors of another building and shot close to sixty people.

What causes people to behave in such a psychotic manner? The gunman later took his own life.

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Posted By: peter chao

Peter,

I apologize for going off in a tangent. There is no rational explanation for the actions of a madman.

Peter

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Posted By: Rhys

Barry

I think there are a few Native American tribes who would disagree with your statement that this was the worst Massacre ever.

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's a fair point...how about the worst massacre ever by a single gunman.

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Posted By: Mike

I would also call the almost forgotten World Trade Towers, a massacre. And absolutely in no way am I minimizing todays horrific act. My two children just recently graduated from College. But that is another story, for another time. The ongoing press conference surrounding todays event, is taking place, and the press are making A - holes out of themselves as usual. Blaming the school, blaming the police, blaming the President of the school. "Someone should have known" "How come you didn't" "Why did it take so long". Why don't idiotic journalism majors place the blame where it belongs, on the psychotic murderer? God I hate the press. It doesn't require the brains of a toad, to play armchair quarterback. Horrible tragedy..

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Posted By: howard

True, Rhys. Native American tribes were both perpetrators and victims of some of the worst massacres in our history (involving whites as well as rival tribes). Also, during the Civil War scores of surrendering black troops were reportedly killed in the Fort Pillow Massacre.

The recent shooting seems to have been the worst massacre by a lone attacker.

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Posted By: AL S

Peter C, I argee with Peter Your post are very strange! What the H____ does the olympics and sports have to do with this major sobering event! A parents worst nightmare!

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Posted By: peter ullman

mike...i couldn't agree more...I sat watching that press conference thinking the exact same thing. It was like a witch hunt. It kind of reminded me of this board...a little lately!

pete in mn

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Posted By: David Smith

Mike,

I think what the press is making a big deal about is a couple of things.

1) There had been some bomb scares in the last couple of weeks, some specifically targeting one of the buildings where the shootings occured. What type of investigation took place and why wasn't security increased?

2) One shooting took place around 8 A.M. and the second took place around 10 A.M.

Why the press is bringing up point two so much is because a grade school close to the campus was completely locked down after the first report of shootings. Why weren't classes cancelled and students told to stay home or in their dorms??

Also, this was not a spur of the moment type of thing. You know, two guys are at a bar and get into a fight. One leaves and then comes back wth a gun and shoots the other guy. No, for that many people to have been shot, killed and injured, the shooter had to have had a plan. He/she had to have shown some signs of anger or troubled thinking beforehand and told somebody or wrote something down.

My guess is because this was probably a College student and the Technology area seems to have been targeted, the shooter had a MySpace or YouTube account and has posted hints or signs in one of those areas. They might have even posted a reason why they were going to do this.

David

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Posted By: peter ullman

It isn't about the press "making a big deal out of anything!" It's about them trying to assign blame without adequate evidence. In light of such a tremendous tragedy...is it so important to "assign" blame? I don't think this is at all productive. And how does a school alert 20000 + students that the school is shut down over an area of hundreds of acres.

I don't think any school, or city, or government can foresee what terrible horror "may" possibly occur. Yes...there were bomb scares...I'd imagine this is not that uncommon.

PEte in mn

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Posted By: peter chao

Pete,

There was a PA system that was never utilized in the 2 hours between the first shooting and the second. In a way that makes no sense, why not use the PA system, were they afraid that the shooter would panic. Why would the shooter panic he already knew there was a shooter on campus.

However, it might have avoided the killing of some of the people in the second building. I know if I was on campus at the time of the PA announcement I would have gotten far away from the campus. I certainly would not have been at the site of the second shooting.

All in all, it is pretty sad.

Peter

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Posted By: Dylan

Peter C that is a very stange and perhaps ignorant thing to say. So if we as men dont play sports and get our "aggression" out, we are liable to take it out like this psycho?? Mankind has the ability to reason, we arent driven solely by our hormones. These types of acts are commited by people with serious issues, not by the average joe because he's sexually frusterated or hasnt gotten his workouts in!

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Posted By: peter chao

Dylan,

Your right I was way off base on my earlier comments. I suppose I was looking for a silver lining when really there isn't one.

Peter

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Posted By: Mike

The President of the school said that about 65 to 70 percent live off campus, and were on their way in to the campus. A PA system would not have helped a great deal. We can all sit and speculate all night long about who did what to whom, and why. And who didn't do what and why. But there is not one person alive. or one person in this forum that can be stopped from this type of thing if they are so inclined. I can walk into any church I want this weekend. So to sit and lay blame on everyone except the shooter, is ludicrous. I suppose they will go after Bush and Cheney next. I wonder if Al and Jessie will go visit the campus....Nah.

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Posted By: JimB

Mike,
This is clearly a case of mass killing that did not involve Bush or Cheney in any way.
JimB

edited for spelling

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

"What motivates people do behave is such a psychotic manner?"

One explanation is demonic possession.

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Posted By: anthony

mike,

i'm sure somewhere, somehow there will be at least one or two democrats that will try to blame this on bush and/or the republican party.

and if jessie jackson and his buddy al can get their faces on tv and their pockets filled, i'm sure they will have something to say if not already at the campus looking for races of the victims....imo, i believe they play a huge, huge part in keeping racism alive in this country.

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Posted By: Bob

Jim, I sometimes just shake my head in bewilderment at some of the things GWBush says. I know he doesn't always mean what comes out of his mouth but right after he said the prayers of the nation go out to the families of the deceased, he says that of course this doesn't mean that we should haven't the right to bar arms. Huh? What a bizarro thing to say in the context of the tragedy. Only W.....

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Posted By: anthony

hey bob, i would have to agree that GW Bush is probably the oddest speaker the white house has ever had but i personally think he was trying to head off the "anti-gun" nuts that will soon petition to have the "right to bare arms" reversed. as in, "there is a right to bare arms so dont even try to go there people!"

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Posted By: Brad

Anthony,

Q: "Right to bar arms"? Why are the American people so afraid, in there own country?

Jessie Jackson and his buddy Al Sharpton:~(keeping racism alive in this country?) Are you serious??? This men fight for people who have no voice!

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Posted By: ScottIngold

" These men fight for people who have no voice!"


What ???????

Sure .... Lets blame everyone for our ills. Why not focus on fixing the problems in the urban centers ?

Bill Cosby has this figured out and is hated by the black community for it. I believe Sharpton and Jackson fully understand this. But self responsibility does not get them face time !

Edited for spelling

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Posted By: David Vargha

They don't have these problems on Israeli campuses. There are no such things as "gun-free zones" there. Conceal-carry permits for law-abiding citizens and no restrictions on having a legal gun on campus may have gone a long way to stop what happened at Virginia Tech. Nonetheless, it's a terrible tragedy for all of the families involved.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Mike

Is it the steak knifes fault, if I take it out of the drawer and go kill someone with it? How bout if I go hit someone with my snow shovel. Ooopss....better make snow shovels illegal. Come, on can we get back to some common sense. It was the work of a madman, not a mad gun.

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Posted By: barrysloate

In most cases there is no way to stop something like this because it is random, irrational, and we can not police every square inch of this country. It can happen anywhere at any time. But this incident is a little different.

After the first two students were killed, the university should have been shut down. Because two hours later the gunman was able to continue his bloody rampage, the school clearly made some tragic mistakes.

In the coming weeks we are going to see a lot of finger pointing, and ultimately this may turn into one of the biggest lawsuits in American history.

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

As an administrator of a school, I can somewhat relate to the decision-making processes of administrations. Obviously, we have never faced anything so tragic at our school, but an administrator's job is never easy. The thing I want to express is that none of us know what reports the administration received about the gunman or the incident after the initial shootings. Initial reports on TV and the internet was 1 dead, 9 injured and a gunman was apprehended. The administration waited two hours before they allowed normalcy to continue. Nothing prepared them for the second shootings - no training, no news, no anything could have allowed them to foresee a second tragedy. The local authorities no doubt told the administration that everything was fine and it was safe to resume classes.

Before you start screaming for heads to roll and placing blame, make sure you have all of the information correct first. Right now, parents and students are emotional - justiafiably so - and they are coping with their losses by means of anger and placing blame. I urge you not to fall into that dramatic trap of finger-pointing when we don't know what was reported or what occurred after the first shootings.

Cut the administration some slack! Nothing - not graduate level classes or past experience - can prepare an administrator for a situation like this.

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Posted By: Dave F

Barry....I sort of disagree. Obviously with a man and woman found dead in the dorm's it looked totally like a domestic dispute..maybe a jealous boyfriend...girl caught cheating type of deal.

It looked like a isolated event. I don't think knowing what they knew at the time they could have shut the school down for that. Had that been the only murders and the school shut down people would be saying "why did they shut down the school over a guy getting revenge on his girlfriend?"

Shutting the school down or annoucing that there is a killer on the loose would have made for one mad dash away from the place..probably injuring more people at the time. I think many times the job of law enforcement official is if possible to coral a situation without causing a mass uproar of the population..which is what they were trying to do here. Hindsight of course is 20/20..but I find it hard to blame anyone for anything other than the jackass that did the shooting.

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Posted By: Mike

I concur. Blame the gunman.

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Posted By: Joe D.

In hindsight... YES they should have shut down the school. And to learn from this... going forward - schools should in general go into lockdown on the first incident.

But that is hindsight... and that is knowledge now from experience.


I cannot blame the school for not going into lockdown in this instance. Would have been great if they did - but I can't fault them for not doing so. I can, however, fault any other school going forward for repeating a bad move.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You can look at this tragedy from any perspective you want, but once these 32 families go through their grieving process there is going to be a lot of anger. And I don't believe they will sit back passively and do nothing.

Maybe the university was partially to blame, and maybe there was nothing they could do. But it will probably take a lawsuit to sort it all out.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

of course you "blame the gunman" --

but does anybody really think he would have killed 32 people with a knife-- even a REALLY sharp one?

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Posted By: Mike

My last comment regarding this issue. Tim you're missing the point. To place the blame on an inanimate object is ludicrous. The blame falls on the human. Doesn't matter whether it's a knife, gun or a toothpick.

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Posted By: Joe D.

are you suggesting that a person planning a murderous spree - would say "oh shucks, I'm not allowed to have a gun so I will use a knife"?

I'm pretty sure that murder is against the law. Willingness to break that law 32 times in a couple of hours might also be a hint that the person is willing to break any and all gun laws that might be in place.

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Posted By: PC

*

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Posted By: JimB

Joe D said,
"I'm pretty sure that murder is against the law. Willingness to break that law 32 times in a couple of hours might also be a hint that the person is willing to break any and all gun laws that might be in place."

Joe, I think there is a flaw in your reasoning. Because somebody is willing to break a law does not mean that a particular law is a not a good idea or a step in the right direction. We can find people willing to break just about any law. That does not mean we throw away laws.

Obviously we will not have a gun-free America in any of our lifetimes since there are 300,000,000 guns in private hands in America. Even if we banned them today, we could not erradicate them. But that does not mean that it should not be an aim to strive towards.

Yes, the killer killed those innocent people. And he did it WITH A GUN (actually two guns). And it was a lot easier for him and he killed a lot more people that he could have otherwise because he had a gun.
JimB

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Posted By: Anonymous

Apologies in advance for adding to this thread, I meant to stop.

I am not a hunter. I have never shot anything in my life. I also have never tryed smoking in my life. I don't think we should ban cigarettes. Another issue for arguement I am sure.

For anyone who seriously thought that I actually thought 32 people could be killed with a toothpick, I am sorry for you. There is no hope. And as far as banning or limiting guns, the only people that would end up with them, would be the same people who disregard our laws anyway. Do you seriously think criminals would throw away their guns, or turn them in ? Or register them ? Anyone psycho enogh to want to kill 32 people, is certainly capable of obtaining an illegal firearm. or legal one for that matter. Lets end this thread.

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Posted By: PC

.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I believe you are taking my argument out of context.

Of course I think there should be gun laws.
I think the gun laws save lives for sure.

I'm not sure where I even suggested to throw out gun laws?


What I will say for this particular instance... I am fairly certain that a person willing to commit murder 32 times in one day is not going to concern himself with the gun law.

So - in the context of this particular conversation... related to this particular event.... arguing that a gun law could have prevented this tragedy -- I just don't see it.