Cleaning coins

[Snapolit1]

It's been many years since I seriously collected coins, but lately have stumbled upon some articles about the controversy surrounding cleaning coins and whether its acceptable.

https://www.numismaticnews.net/commu...ins-irrational

Anyone know how the views in that collecting world compare to what most people think about cleaning cards? Maybe like cards, opinions are all over the map. Look at coins all the time . . . stupidly never even thought of the cleaning issue. And I don't know if it bothers me.

If a coin is obviously cleaned, is it marked down some why by the grading companies?

I know Peter S. collects coins, suspect others do as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's complicated and not necessarily consistent. I'm not even sure I understand what PCGS' policy really is as it seems inhrently inconsistent but copied below.

https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

Submitting a coin for PCGS Restoration in no way guarantees the upgrade of your coin. If the coin is already in a PCGS holder, it is guaranteed not to downgrade, nothing more. Through our restoration service, PCGS is committed to preserving and restoring coins to their original and natural condition.

Toning
PCGS Restoration will not remove original toning simply to make a coin white.
PCGS Restoration will never add toning to a coin.
In cases where PCGS determines that removing toning is necessary and desirable and will not detract from the coin, it may be done. This type of toning may be the result of improper storage, interaction with corrosive materials, or a stain due to an accidental spill.
Surface Contaminants
PCGS Restoration will remove any contaminants that are determined to have been deliberately and artificially applied. Examples include putty, dumdum, grease and other substances known to be used by “coin doctors.”
Restoration will remove contaminants introduced to the coin's surface through improper care or storage. Examples include PVC or Verdigris.
Dirt or debris can often be removed through a gentle rinse.
PCGS Restoration will never add any substance to the surface of a coin.
Spots
Spots on coins can be the result of a variety of causes. Many spots can be removed, yet some cannot be removed without damaging the coin.
PCGS will not attempt to remove a spot unless it is determined that the spot significantly detracts from the coin's overall appearance or is active and will continue to grow.
PCGS will not attempt to restore a spotted coin if that in our opinion, a spot is so deep that removal would lower the coin's overall condition.
Older spots such as old spittle or old thumbprints often cannot be removed without stripping the coin's original surface and will not be attempted.
Newer contaminants such as recent fingerprints can be removed. Also, certain spots due to corrosive interactions can often be removed without impairing the surface.
Metal
PCGS Restoration will never add, remove or alter metal. This includes engaging in well-known “coin doctoring” practices such as smoothing, whizzing, polishing, engraving, etc.
Issues such as scratches, dings, planchet flaws or bending will not be addressed. If it is determined that a coin suffering from one or more of these problems does not have other issues that can be addressed through Restoration, the coin will be returned as is.

[Snapolit1]

Wow, you ain't kidding. That's not simple.

In lay person's terms, cleaning a dirty coin with some soapy water seems ok to me, but obviously altering the coin in some way is another story.

[Bcwcardz]

I knew cleaned coins were taboo but didn’t know how much. Good to know. I guess the ones I’ve sold over the years were fine. I’ve had no complaints. Nothing big, just random Morgan silver dollars my grandma had. I assume she wasn’t a coin cleaner. I really wouldn’t know how to tell if one was cleaned or not. Their grading notes cleaning etc, ours does not. As a collector I’m always interested
in other hobbies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sb1]

Like many early cards that have been soaked(primarily due to scrapbook removal), many high-grade and of course lower grade coins have been cleaned in their past life. Some aggressively with silver polish, brasso and other cleaners, others "whizzed" with wire brushes and many, many "dipped" in jewelry cleaners such as Jewel Luster and modern days products such as MS70 to remove toning or other tarnish.

ALL will affect the grade by a 3rd party, many will come back with "cleaned" or improperly cleaned label and bring a fraction of the price of a true mint state or high-grade coin.

Like cards, there are a myriad of other coin doctoring methods from simple retooling of designs to using lasers.

[sthoemke]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Wow, you ain't kidding. That's not simple.

In lay person's terms, cleaning a dirty coin with some soapy water seems ok to me, but obviously altering the coin in some way is another story.

I'm not an expert, but never use soap to clean a coin.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

It's been many years since I seriously collected coins, but lately have stumbled upon some articles about the controversy surrounding cleaning coins and whether its acceptable.

https://www.numismaticnews.net/commu...ins-irrational

Anyone know how the views in that collecting world compare to what most people think about cleaning cards? Maybe like cards, opinions are all over the map. Look at coins all the time . . . stupidly never even thought of the cleaning issue. And I don't know if it bothers me.

If a coin is obviously cleaned, is it marked down some why by the grading companies?

I know Peter S. collects coins, suspect others do as well.

not cleaned
1895-O Morgan Dollar PCGS AU-58

see link
https://www.ebay.com/itm/38612026024...Bk9SR8DG94GPYw

here is one similar grade

1895-S $1 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PCGS GENUINE CLEANED - AU DETAIL
see link
https://www.ebay.com/itm/38620237122...Bk9SR9Co54GPYw


big difference in price

[Snapolit1]

I guess I don't get why cleaning with soap would be frowned upon, as long as you are not altering the surface of the coin in any way, but like everything else it's just a slippery slope down from there. I assume galleries clear old paintings all the time, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

[steve B]

Hung out at a stamp and coin place and did occasional work if store credit.

The level of original tarnish depends on the way a coin was stored.
Nearly every "brilliant uncirculated" coin has been cleaned at some time.
Most tarnish is pretty ugly. Just a grayish to black coating. Curently the fad is for toned coins, and yes back then there were a few with an incredible rainbow sheen. They were very uncommon, many had been in the hobby for a long time usually in great condition too. Unfortunately what was wanted then was shiny coins, so many got cleaned.
The "good" cleaning was being dipped in a product called numisol which is very similar if not identical to the silver jewlery cleaning fluid. Then a rinse with water and dried on a soft cloth to avoid scratches.

Bad cleaning creates scratches, damage, etc.


people quickly figured out that putting the coin in certain envelopes or along with certain chemicals could create that beautiful rainbow toning. So that now desirable toning is faked starting with a cleaned coin.

Considering how few silver coins I saw that were not tarnished I would expect that both of the coins shown were cleaned at some time. One well done, the other probably with some caustic cleaner.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I guess I don't get why cleaning with soap would be frowned upon, as long as you are not altering the surface of the coin in any way, but like everything else it's just a slippery slope down from there. I assume galleries clear old paintings all the time, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

Soap usually requires rubbing, which causes wear, however slight. That wear would be the difference between an uncirculated grade from 60 and up and AU, almost uncirculated 58. (Don't try to make sense of the coin grading numbers, it's a 5-70 scale... )
But since most coins actually came from banks and simply never got used, they should all technically be AU unless they came from some sort of presentation set.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Hung out at a stamp and coin place and did occasional work if store credit.

The level of original tarnish depends on the way a coin was stored.
Nearly every "brilliant uncirculated" coin has been cleaned at some time.
Most tarnish is pretty ugly. Just a grayish to black coating. Curently the fad is for toned coins, and yes back then there were a few with an incredible rainbow sheen. They were very uncommon, many had been in the hobby for a long time usually in great condition too. Unfortunately what was wanted then was shiny coins, so many got cleaned.
The "good" cleaning was being dipped in a product called numisol which is very similar if not identical to the silver jewlery cleaning fluid. Then a rinse with water and dried on a soft cloth to avoid scratches.

Bad cleaning creates scratches, damage, etc.


people quickly figured out that putting the coin in certain envelopes or along with certain chemicals could create that beautiful rainbow toning. So that now desirable toning is faked starting with a cleaned coin.

Considering how few silver coins I saw that were not tarnished I would expect that both of the coins shown were cleaned at some time. One well done, the other probably with some caustic cleaner.

I know nothing about coins. When I have seen that beautiful rainbow toning I figured it was heat that done it. I have been around a lot of metal repair and heat will do that to other metal.

[icurnmedic]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I know nothing about coins. When I have seen that beautiful rainbow toning I figured it was heat that done it. I have been around a lot of metal repair and heat will do that to other metal.

Place a silver coin in a bag with a boiled egg, and may get the same result. I would think a grader could tell the difference but I don’t know.