I RELIZE WHY DEALER'S LOVE PSA

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Posted By: mike wrenn

I attended the L.I classic this past weekend on Long Island, New york. To try to find out info from dealer's on why they love PSA. After browsing many tables and listening to dealer's chat with each other and customers. I kept hearing the same tune over and over agian. As dealer's chatted away I kept hearing them discribing there graded PSA cards to each other as this card is over graded that card is over graded. There answer to each other was I don't care if it's over-graded or not I'll just make more off the card. After hearing this, I ask one of the dealer's what happens to the person who buys the over-graded card from you and I was told that I don't grade the cards I just sell them and as long as I make more money off a over-graded card, I'll sell them all day long. Then I ask him that the customer get screwed then correct, He said any body who buy's PSA graded cards
is going to pay top dollar and that the way it is. He then continued to say sucker's are born every-day. After
a 10 minute conversation I ask him to give me his honest
opinion about grading. I was then told that the grading business is a business and the three majors are in it to make money, there first and major priority. I was then told that the sad reality about the card business is that, The grading industry is rasponsible for the rising cost of all graded and raw cards. I found it very difficult to find any card at this weekend show in the RAW
that were in ex-mt to nr-mt example 7 and 8 (grade scale).
Me my self have no problem with the grading industry I don't like the business, but I can see how it makes things easier to buy pre-war card over the web. But to pay 10-20x and up for cards that a veteran collector can
grade himself or he can pay for a third party to tell you it's a 7,8,9,10 doesn't justify any of these inflated prices. Before any grading company came along quality dealer's charged a little over book, but not like they do know. I pesonally believe that it's a way for grading companies to make money and convince collector's it's neccessary to buy graded cardsonly. This info is based on information that I heard directly from the source PRETTY BIG DEALER'S.All opinion are welcome. I'm just sharing what I heard from as many as 10 different vintage dealer's Blast off at the industry not at me.

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Posted By: Jim F

Mike. First of all, any dealer talking like that is a clown and not a reputable dealer. Second, if you are at a show looking at the cards in person, pay more attention to the card and not the label. If YOU think it's over graded, don't buy it!! We can argue all day about consistency and the flaws of each company, but the bottum line is the major grading companies are needed when it comes to internet trading. I would rather take the word of psa than some unknown person on ebay with photoshop selling his Mint cards. As far as the grading companies causing prices to go up, that's one of the silliest things I've ever heard!! WE drive prices up. Only demand or lack of it, can move a market. If collectors do not bid against each other for cards, the prices go down. Show dealers just try to reflect realized prices but it is much, much harder to get top dollar at a show rather than at auction. And of course there are still your run of the mill, borderline scumbags that try and catch you sleeping, but it's up to you to do your homework before you put your hand in your pocket. If you're not comfortable, just say NO !! Jim

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Posted By: cmoking

"I was then told that the grading business is a business and the three majors are in it to make money, there first and major priority. "

I was told PSA was a charitable non-profit organization! What the heck is this? They are a business trying to make money?

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Posted By: quan

there's a downward trend in 3rd party grading in term of the strictness...



a card like this crawford (SGC50) would've been VG a couple years ago(its true grade). And yes I'm picking out an SGC card intentionally. Pretty soon we'll have plenty of pre war 7s 8s and 9s like the OP says from EX stuff.

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Posted By: Neal K

like those two dealers were idiots ...

Jack's Dad

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

Quan,

I bought this card as a 50 three or four months ago. I cracked it and got it regraded by SGC two months ago...how do you explain this?

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Posted By: HandsAtNeck

When the between grade price warrants it, cards will be resubmitted continuously until each is in the highest graded holder attainable. Then every card will be the minimum quality to barely make the grade. To a large extent this is what happened with coins. Is this bad? No, it is ridiculous.

There is no reason for a numerical grade, imho. Just identify unaltered authenticity, and I can evaluate a card's merit based on my own criteria.

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Posted By: quan

you're not mastro or rea , send it to bcd and he'll show u the crease/wrinkle with his patented loupe.

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Posted By: Brett

i don't need to pay like $10 for PSA or SGC to tell me my creased to hell cards are in fair to poor shape. i blame the grading companies for the price of cards.

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Posted By: RP60

Can we all say eBay? In recent years I have purchased some beautiful PSA 3's from the T205 set, and all HOFers. .A Jennings 3(85) Marquard 3(75) Bresnahan mouth closed 3(90) Wallace with cap 3(110)..Griffith 4(120) Huggins 4(100)..I go to ALL the shows in the NY area and smile as I walk past the cases. All the cards I just mentioned with comparable grades start at 175 and go up to 275 and sometimes a little bit more..Knowledge is POWER..

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

I got it now, Quan! LOL

BCD,

Card coming...

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Posted By: John Kal

The cards I buy are too expensive to buy raw. If I bought my recently purchased '48 Leaf Ted PSA 7 raw (at a show or on eBay) it would almost assuredly be trimmed. It's happened to me a few times and I refuse to buy nice old cards ungraded. SGC is more consistant than PSA and makes fewer mistakes, but I trust them both to protect me from the altered card. GAI--I have my doubts. I think PSA has become too big and corporate and slip-ups happen, but PSA cards hold or increase in value. Buy the card, not the grade. Grading is not the only reason prices are up: nice old cards are drying up and more people are after them.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...one of the reasons more people are after them is because it is harder to get screwed by dealers selling trimmed cards, thanks to SGC. Does SGC ever grade a trimmed card? I'm sure there are examples. But by and large, you have a pretty good idea what kind of card you are getting when you get it in an SGC holder. It makes the whole experience of collecting a lot more fun for me (and, obviously, by the rising prices, a lot more people).

Demand rises because collectors like graded cards, thus prices rise. If you do not like graded cards, perhaps you have never had the experiences that I have had -- paying $500 for a card on ebay where the seller said "EX, no creases" and the card arrives with a huge crease not visible in the scan. Thankfully, the seller accepted a return/full refund. But if he put that card in an SGC holder, it would've been a solid VG; it would have cost 20% of the price I paid; and we all would have saved a lot of time and trouble.

Graded cards are a necessary and vital component to collecting vintage baseball cards in the 21st Century.

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Posted By: leon

Yes, SGC has graded trimmed cards. I had a very poor experience with an ebay seller after I bought a T213-1 Huggins portrait, supposedly in EX condition. I got it and it was definitely trimmed...ie wavy, short, and 2 corners were sharper than the other 2. All of the telltale signs. I returned it to him and a while later I saw it listed on ebay, in an SGC 30 or 40 holder. I called SGC and one of the graders looked at it with me, on ebay, and said something to the effect that it was too high of a price for them to do anything about. I still think SGC is far and away the best, but they all make mistakes.....regards

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Posted By: BobC

I usually keep my own counsel on this stuff but this can't be ignored.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-Ty-Cobb-Green-Back-PSA-5-unbelievably-sharp_W0QQitemZ8794712706QQcategoryZ31718QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem

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Posted By: Steve K

Anyone who doesn't understand the value of graded cards should visit the baseball card shops in Cooperstown, NY. I visited the Hall three summers ago and afterwards stopped into most of the town's card shops which are within easy walking distance. It was like going back in time to a town's card shops of "yesteryear" - I don't remember seeing a single graded card in any shop - but there were plenty of cards...overgraded, trimmed, retouched, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

Slightly OT but one store had a signed picture poster about 2' x 3' of Mantle and Maris with autographs so phony looking it was highly laughable, and he was asking $1,500! You want to go back to the days of buying non-graded cards from dealers?...you go right ahead and buy their garbage...I'm sticking with cards graded by PSA and SGC - it's well worth it.

Steve

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Posted By: JimB

And let's not forget that we can even make claims like "this card is undergraded" or "overgraded" because PSA and later SGC were consistent enough that the general collecting public became aware of a grading standard that has become broadly accepted across the hobby. Before third party grading dealer claims about a card being vg or ex or whatever varied wildly. There was little to no concensus in practical terms about what constituted any given grade.
JimB

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Posted By: Anonymous

I have had seemingly opposite experiences from you. The shows I have attended recently, pretty minimal but I try to get to a few a year, are filled with dealers selling ungraded cards overgraded and at graded card prices. The few dealers that had graded material was overpriced or were graded by lower tier grading companies.

Adam B

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

About 15 years ago the hobby was on life support as vintage collectors had completely lost faith whether cards were altered or not. Vintage nrmt-mt cards were receiving no bids from reputable and disreputable dealers alike. PSA came along, collectors gained confidence in buying graded cards, and the hobby is thriving today.

1)Are graded cards more expensive--of course
2)Do dealers overgrade their ungraded cards--yes
3)Are their a lot of trimmed or otherwise altered vintage cards out there--absolutely
4)Do PSA/SGC make mistakes--yes
5)Are graded cards the future of the hobby--bet on it

The other thing that is driving the graded card trend is the PSA Set Registry and the competition to have the best or one of the best sets.

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

There are advantages and disadvantages, so I do not think the hobby is better 1 way or the other. I like the registry (both PSA and SGC) not for competition, but simply to track and showcase my collection. There are many collectors who love the competition aspect of the registry and that's fine by me as well.

One thing about graded cards and registries I do not like are high-grade, high-priced commons. I do not get a thrill about buying a 200.00 common simply because it's cardboard in perfect condition. I'd much rather collect lower-graded HOFers and Stars, than high grade commons, but to each his own.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

I don't think grading has saved the hobby per se', but I get Jim's point, and agree with it.

We often forget that the hobby consists of a primary market of companies putting out packs of baseball cards every year, and people buying them. The 05 revenues for Topps alone were $294 million - which is a pretty decent number - mostly from the sales of shiny new cards in packs. I think the concept of companies making cards and people buying them each year is a safe one, grading or not.

Of course the hobby also consists of a secondary market of collectors like us, and this is where I agree with Jim. Completely.

There are people who consider condition a primary factor in their collection, and there are people who don't. Fine. But whether you do or not, it is a WHOLE lot easier to get an idea of condition from someone who tells you a card is an SGC 60 then it is from someone who tells you a card is EX.

Grading may have its negatives, but given the dollars that go into the secondary market, it's here to stay. Anyone who's tried to assemble a graded set with self-submissions, or bought an overgraded raw card over the internet from a seller who wouldn't take it back, or gotten stuck with an altered or counterfeit big-dollar raw card would agree.

-Al