Heritage Rosen Mantle - Greatest Card Ever Auctioned?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think Matt just loves the card and takes this shit personally, I don't think he's pumping it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think Matt just loves the card and takes this shit personally, I don't think he's pumping it.

If one makes a thread hyping a card that they own, gets upset when anybody says anything that is not even necessarily critical but doesn't further hype the card and is 100% undeniably factually true... I mean, I have a hard time seeing the difference between it being "personal" versus "pumping". I guess the difference is the internal thought process? The act is the same thing here.

The 52 Mantle has the longest and biggest pump and marketing campaign of any card in hobby history. Which is fine, if people want to treat cards as an investment vehicle, they can go ahead. But it is what it is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

If one makes a thread hyping a card that they own, gets upset when anybody says anything that is not even necessarily critical but doesn't further hype the card and is 100% undeniably factually true... I mean, I have a hard time seeing the difference between it being "personal" versus "pumping". I guess the difference is the internal thought process? The act is the same thing here.

The 52 Mantle has the longest and biggest pump and marketing campaign of any card in hobby history. Which is fine, if people want to treat cards as an investment vehicle, they can go ahead. But it is what it is.

This card has been near and dear to Matt for the many years he's been posting here. It's genuine IMO, whether or not one agrees with it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Heritage did well to call it the finest #311 ever, and to put it on the flip, because even if it isn't, the description takes on a life of its own and the card becomes unique.

As one of my favorite quotes (Wallace Stevens) goes, what we said of it became a part of what it is..

sort of a corollary to Schroedinger's cat. Instead of it isn't anything until it's observed, it isn't anything until it's hyped?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

The 52 Topps Mantle is very unique in the emotional connection people seem have to it. It seems like half the hobby gets triggered if you simply state "the card is a double print" or correctly state that it's not a rookie (it's, what, his third or fourth mainstream card?). These statements are undeniably 100% factually true, and are not even an assault on the card, but it ruins a lot of Sunday's. It's the only card for which people do this. Tell the T206 guys that there are many cards rarer than a Wagner and they will agree with you instead of getting pissed. Tell a Baltimore Ruth fan that the card isn't a rookie but a pre-rookie because it's not a major league card and they will agree it's a minor league card. I suspect the reason for this is that the Mantle card is not difficult or rare and there are tons of copies, so many collectors own one and are bought into the seemingly never-ending pump with a vested interest in rocketing that as high as possible. T206 Wagner owners are much fewer and don't have to go agro to defend their investment because its demand and growth was more organic instead of an investment hype train.

Fans of the T206 Wagner, the Baltimore Ruth, and other cards have never tried to claim Mr. Mint as an authority of integrity before that's for sure

I would wager that even the most ardent or sensitive owners of the double printed 2nd year card of Mantle--the 1952 Topps--would probably agree that the appreciation the card has seen is somewhat disproportionate. Given the sheer number of them that have survived there are a great deal of collectors who have benefited from its appreciation over the last few years so I can see why saying anything negative even about the 1952 Topps set might put in jeopardy someone's Sunday.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This card has been near and dear to Matt for the many years he's been posting here. It's genuine IMO, whether or not one agrees with it.

I'm going to maintain my position; getting upset over objective facts is a little weird. Whether it's a genuine love or a cold hearted calculation isn't something I addressed nor care about; the end result is blatant pumping of a card. I'm not even anti-52-Mantle, it's a nice card and a nice picture of a young Mickey from a great set. But facts are facts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm going to maintain my position; getting upset over objective facts is a little weird. Whether it's a genuine love or a cold hearted calculation isn't something I addressed nor care about; the end result is blatant pumping of a card. I'm not even anti-52-Mantle, it's a nice card and a nice picture of a young Mickey from a great set. But facts are facts.

I guess to me pumping requires an element of intent, but if you're defining it otherwise we can both be right.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I would wager that even the most ardent or sensitive owners of the double printed 2nd year card of Mantle--the 1952 Topps--would probably agree that the appreciation the card has seen is somewhat disproportionate. Given the sheer number of them that have survived there are a great deal of collectors who have benefited from its appreciation over the last few years so I can see why saying anything negative even about the 1952 Topps set might put in jeopardy someone's Sunday.

I agree, I would expect this why this one alone of the top tier investment cards so frequently has this defensive theme.

The 52 Mickey is a great card and you will all make money, relax investors and Mickey lovers. It's also a DP and not a rookie by any definition.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess to me pumping requires an element of intent, but if you're defining it otherwise we can both be right.

The intent, from the hyperbolic words used, seems too clearly be to push positive interest, superlatives and publicity to the 52 Mantle. Otherwise, observing facts that are not even negative but just don't help the pumping would not be upsetting to some people. Pumping its reputation is pumping, regardless of whether one is doing this because one loves the card so very much and wants to spread its cheer and joy to others or because one is calculating the profit margin as they do it doesn't change it. I do not claim to know WHY people do what they do, I can only look at what they are saying.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by G1911

The 52 Topps Mantle is very unique in the emotional connection people seem have to it. It seems like half the hobby gets triggered if you simply state "the card is a double print" or correctly state that it's not a rookie (it's, what, his third or fourth mainstream card?). These statements are undeniably 100% factually true, and are not even an assault on the card, but it ruins a lot of Sunday's. It's the only card for which people do this. Tell the T206 guys that there are many cards rarer than a Wagner and they will agree with you instead of getting pissed. Tell a Baltimore Ruth fan that the card isn't a rookie but a pre-rookie because it's not a major league card and they will agree it's a minor league card. I suspect the reason for this is that the Mantle card is not difficult or rare and there are tons of copies, so many collectors own one and are bought into the seemingly never-ending pump with a vested interest in rocketing that as high as possible. T206 Wagner owners are much fewer and don't have to go agro to defend their investment because its demand and growth was more organic instead of an investment hype train.

Fans of the T206 Wagner, the Baltimore Ruth, and other cards have never tried to claim Mr. Mint as an authority of integrity before that's for sure

Some good points there.

[Republicaninmass]

Try and tell a t206 set collector a set isnt complete without a wagner...hmmmm

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Try and tell a t206 set collector a set isnt complete without a wagner...hmmmm

I don't think T206 Wagner owners would disagree with this at all. They are the ones happy to count the set correctly

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by G1911

Who has criticized Mickey Mantle? Do you not know the card is not a rookie? Did you not know it was a DP? Do you not understand it does not meet SGC’s published criteria of a 9.5? What statement is “bile”?

Got to love the pumpers.

You don't know me for shit, pal. So don't pretend to know my motivations for what I type. I could not give a rat's ass about the price of my cards. Maybe you "invest," since you typed about that above. If we're going to ascribe motivation behind posts, perhaps you're not pleased with the state of your own cardboard investments relative to cards like the Mantle? Despite all those facts— it being a DP, the 51B being his RC (tragically underappreciated, relative to the 52T, I might add)— the card world has never cared. Not for decades upon decades now. So you can shout those facts at the sky in some desperate schadenfreude Hail Mary that people will wake up one day and dislike it, yet other facts and intangibles about the card will win the day as they always have and always will. Its desirability and popularity endure. Some seem to have an axe to grind against the card, and get triggered when they contemplate its status and popularity— the motivations behind that would probably not be hard to divine.

Not all of us look at our cards as investments and not all enthusiasm is financially motivated. I buy cards because I collect, though I sell on rare occasion when I have doubles or want something new. As to your condescendingly written string of questions about the card, yes: I know as much about his cards as you or anyone, for that matter.

You don't seem to understand the very real concepts of eye appeal or centering in the vintage space and how they in effect create rarity, from your comments about the sheer pop of the card. It is specious at best and disingenuous at worst to cite sheer pop numbers, when we all know an overwhelming percentage of those that exist possess average eye appeal. At best.

I don't need to nor have I ever "pumped" anything. Let alone the standard-bearer of the hobby, alongside the Wagner. Newsflash: people can be huge lovers of the 52T Mantle and the likes of a Wagner, Fred Foto Ruth, '25 Exhibit Lou, T210 Jackson, and '84 Donruss Mattingly. These are not mutually exclusive camps. If I posted extensively, as I have in the past, about my love of any of those cards, it would not be pumping. And as to what owners of this card or that card or the other card behave like... one thing I haven't seen fellow owners of the Mantle do is take time out to take negative pot shots at other great cards.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by MattyC

You don't know me for shit, pal. So don't pretend to know my motivations for what I type. I could not give a rat's ass about the price of my cards. Maybe you "invest," since you typed about that above. If we're going to ascribe motivation behind posts, perhaps you're not pleased with the state of your own cardboard investments relative to cards like the Mantle? Not all of us look at our cards as investments and not all enthusiasm is financially motivated. I buy cards because I collect, though I sell on rare occasion when I have doubles or want something new. As to your questions about the card, yes: I know as much about his cards as you or anyone, for that matter.

You don't seem to understand the very real concepts of eye appeal or centering in the vintage space and how they in effect create rarity, from your comments about the sheer pop of the card. It is specious at best and disingenuous at worst to cite sheer pop numbers, when we all know an overwhelming percentage of those that exist possess average eye appeal. At best.

I don't need to nor have I ever "pumped" anything. Let alone the standard-bearer of the hobby, alongside the Wagner.

I believe that to be genuine.

[Rhotchkiss]

My most “modern” card is a 33 Goudey. Yet, I jumped at the chance to buy this amazing Tim Carroll piece (baseball cards made of cut up baseball cards) when it became available, because after the t206 Wagner, the 1952 Topps Mantle is the most iconic card. Fact, end of story.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

My most “modern” card is a 33 Goudey. Yet, I jumped at the chance to buy this amazing Tim Carroll piece (baseball cards made of cut up baseball cards) when it became available, because after the t206 Wagner, the 1952 Topps Mantle is the most iconic card. Fact, end of story.

Absolutely. And I don’t own one and never will. But man what a card. There will always be way more people that want this card a lot than the pop can support. Same with all the Goudey Ruths. Saying it’s not as rare as other cards seems like a non-point.

[G1911]

Wow, this is unhinged. You are pumping in this thread, and openly so with your hyperbolic statements and outrage at people who are not even critical of the card but just not pumping it. Go read your own posts. I guess your Sunday was, indeed, ruined.

Originally Posted by MattyC

You don't know me for shit, pal. So don't pretend to know my motivations for what I type.

Did you see where I specifically said that I am not proscribing motivation, and do not care what the motivation is, and declined to speculate on it when your pals jumped in? I don't know why you type what you type, and I do not care. I can simply read.

Originally Posted by MattyC

I could not give a rat's ass about the price of my cards. Maybe you "invest," since you typed about that above. If we're going to ascribe motivation behind posts, perhaps you're not pleased with the state of your own cardboard investments relative to cards like the Mantle? Despite all those facts— it being a DP, the 51B being his RC (tragically underappreciated, relative to the 52T, I might add)— the card world has never cared. Not for decades upon decades now. So you can shout those facts at the sky in some desperate schadenfreude Hail Mary that people will wake up one day and dislike it, yet other facts and intangibles about the card will win the day as they always have and always will. Its desirability and popularity endure. Some seem to have an axe to grind against the card, and get triggered when they contemplate its status and popularity— the motivations behind that would probably not be hard to divine.

I don't invest. I'd like for the card market to collapse, and have openly stated so here multiple times. My hobby dollars would buy more cards if it did to enjoy as cards.

Again, no one is attacking the 52 Mantle. I even said it was a great card last night, for the tenth time. Some of us just aren't pumping it. You are going ballistic at things not even critical of the card or hating on it. Get a grip.

Originally Posted by MattyC

Not all of us look at our cards as investments and not all enthusiasm is financially motivated. I buy cards because I collect, though I sell on rare occasion when I have doubles or want something new. As to your condescendingly written string of questions about the card, yes: I know as much about his cards as you or anyone, for that matter.

My condescending questions are asking you to back up the load of complete bullshit you spewed. Where did anyone attack Mantle? When? Your claim to authority, that you know more about Mickey and his cards than me or anyone else in the world, is a bizarre ego flex but utterly irrelevant to anything I actually said.

Originally Posted by MattyC

You don't seem to understand the very real concepts of eye appeal or centering in the vintage space and how they in effect create rarity, from your comments about the sheer pop of the card. It is specious at best and disingenuous at worst to cite sheer pop numbers, when we all know an overwhelming percentage of those that exist possess average eye appeal. At best.

I must seriously question your grip on reality by this point. When did I say the card is not a condition rarity? When did I say most copies are centered? I said there are many copies out there and so many more hobbyists are invested into it than most of the marquee cards. That is a fact. Can you try to deal with reality and what was actually said instead of the shit you make up?

Originally Posted by MattyC

I don't need to nor have I ever "pumped" anything. Let alone the standard-bearer of the hobby, alongside the Wagner. Newsflash: people can be huge lovers of the 52T Mantle and the likes of a Wagner, Fred Foto Ruth, '25 Exhibit Lou, T210 Jackson, and '84 Donruss Mattingly. These are not mutually exclusive camps. If I posted extensively, as I have in the past, about my love of any of those cards, it would not be pumping. And as to what owners of this card or that card or the other card behave like... one thing I haven't seen fellow owners of the Mantle do is take time out to take negative pot shots at other great cards.

This is a wonderful example of what I mean about the 52 Mantle. Anything said about it that does not pump it's rep severely triggers a number of hobbyists, no matter how true the statement is. I called it a great card of a young Mantle from a great set with a great picture. Only to you is that an unbridled attack on the card.

Go renew your prescription and get a grip.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Wow, this is unhinged. You are pumping in this thread, and openly so with your hyperbolic statements and outrage at people who are not even critical of the card but just not pumping it. Go read your own posts. I guess your Sunday was, indeed, ruined.

Well I do not know about his Sunday but I know his Tuesday is not off to a great start.



This is from his post starting this thread:

Originally Posted by MattyC

Wonder where it will end-- wonder how it will affect the card in all grades, especially those examples with rare centering.

And excerpts from today:

Originally Posted by MattyC

I could not give a rat's ass about the price of my cards.

Originally Posted by MattyC

Not all of us look at our cards as investments and not all enthusiasm is financially motivated.

Today is probably not the day to ask but I cannot help but wonder how the first quote does not entirely contradict the premise of his post today.

[phillyfan24]

[QUOTE=MattyC;2258260]
You don't seem to understand the very real concepts of eye appeal or centering in the vintage space and how they in effect create rarity

I got into graded cards just under 10 years ago. Didn't know anything about grading companies. I was a HUGE Phillies and M. Schmidt fan as a kid. Had my childhood 73 M. Schmidt rookie card, and somehow came across graded cards. It just fascinated me and had to learn more. Among other things I joined Net54. I asked questions here etc. and Matty was always willing to answer and help me in my understanding of this new adventure.

The very first bit of advice he gave me was that he valued "Centering" first and foremost because it gave out the best "Eye Appeal". In my mind no truer or better advice can be given!

Well as a bit of time passed me and Matty became card acquaintances as I'll put it. We emailed and discussed the hoppy etc. I even purchased some great cards. Including a beautiful 1973 M. Schmidt PSA 9, that I had to make an offer he couldn't refuse because he didn't want to give it up. That card I've had a long time (can't believe it's been about 8 years).

My point is that in my experience with Matty. I've found him to be a man willing to answer and help in any way he can. Always very passionate and loved Mickey Mantle for sure! We lost touch years ago, I honestly don't remember the last time we corresponded. I see him posting here all the time and fondly recall how he really got me into collecting graded vintage, and pointed me in a direction I use to this day.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Well I do not know about his Sunday but I know his Tuesday is not off to a great start.



This is from his post starting this thread:


And excerpts from today:




Today is probably not the day to ask but I cannot help but wonder how the first quote does not entirely contradict the premise of his post today.

He also posted in the other thread on the same subject, literally just 2 minutes apart from his deranged post here, that he recently paid $60,000 for a poor condition copy graded a 1.

No other card in the hobby attracts such fury at anything that does not serve the pump, even if the offending statements are not even criticisms of the card, which I have praised in almost every post because I know well how triggered the Mantle pumpers get when encountering anything that does not serve their interest.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

He also posted in the other thread on the same subject, literally just 2 minutes apart from his deranged post here, that he recently paid $60,000 for a poor condition copy graded a 1.

Yes I saw that post. It is not about the money though...ugh.