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#1
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Joann
I know it's been debated here at some length that many PSA 8+ cards are trimmed, with most of the discussion revolving around the T206's. But I have a question about how that could be. |
#2
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Bobby Binder
There are quality trimming machines that I am sure thses people are using they are very expensive but the pay off is big. I am sure they are not using a ruler and a exacto knife. About 10 years ago I worked in a print shop and the cutter they used was about 40 years old. These machines are very durable and sure they would leave the same edge roll that they talked about in the SGC article. |
#3
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: JimCrandell
Here we go again! |
#4
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: leon
I had a gentleman call me a few months ago, that I know but only a little bit. He said "Hey Leon, This is xxxx, I am a card doctor". We had a good discussion about trimming. He said he really only takes out small creases and wrinkles but the folks that do trimming do it to the tops and bottoms or one or the other. The sides are much longer and if you want a sharp corner why would you want more landscape to have to work on? Made sense to me. I know way back in the day innocent collectors trimmed cards to fit in pages and such....but I think we are talking more on the deceptive side here. I don't know a lot about it but figured this might help a little...best regards |
#5
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: barrysloate
Jim- when we have our meeting Thursday I will tell you a harrowing story of the altered PSA 8's I know about that have been holdered. And if our guest speaker is there, he will be able to corroborate it. I will not go into detail on a public forum, but it may cause you some sleepless nights. |
#6
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Dave
I too sometimes question the different grading companies when it comes to trimmed cards. It's not too hard to measure a T206 card and then look at it under magnification to tell it's been trimmed by someone who isn't sophisticated. Unfortunately there is a lot of money to be made by selling Tobacco cards that have been trimmed or altered. It's my experience that there are an awful lot of trimmed T206 cards being sold on the market today. Some knowingly....others unknowingly. Back in the mid 90's my brother and I bought about 47 T206 cards from what we thought was a reputable auction company ( I will not name the name of the company here, but they are no longer in business). Now that we have submittd them all to PSA for grading I can report that 17 of the cards were returned ungraded due to evidence of trimming. 5 cards were hall of famers, 5 were southern leaguers, and the rest were commons. So I am now suspect of T206 cards that grade 7 or higher. I have to think that graders give "T" cards like the T206's more scrutiny due to the fact that the cutting machines of the time were inprecise...meaning that some miscutting at the factory resulted. |
#7
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Joann
OK. Sounds like it is possible. I guess I was maybe being naive? I was thinking that maybe there weren't as many of the 8+'s trimmed as people believe, going only on the fact that it would mean a whole lot of trimmed edges missed by graders that seem to be able to catch them at lower levels. It seemed kind of statistically unlikely to me that so may could be missed, therefore more were actually unaltered 8's. I guess I didn't realize that kind of equipment was so easily had. |
#8
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: JimCrandell
Barry, |
#9
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: barrysloate
I will send you an email, but isn't that what the meeting is supposed to be about. |
#10
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: JimCrandell
Barry, |
#11
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: jackgoodman
Barry, just wondering why you won't go public with your information? |
#12
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Tim Newcomb
"The high grade cards are immune" |
#13
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Hal Lewis
I thought I had always heard that the T206's could be "soaked and pressed" as well to make them slightly BIGGER than normal (but also a touch flatter). |
#14
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Frank Evanov
Yes, I've been told that soaking and stretching allows for trimming without affecting overall card size. |
#15
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
Yes, Hal. That is absolutely true. And not really all that thinner if the card isn't severely pressed and blotted dry. |
#16
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
Is there a way to tell by looking at a slabbed card's label when it was slabbed? Assuming there is, and in recognition of the various expressed opinions that a certain percentage of slabbed cards if resubmited today would come back with either a lower grade or evidence of alteration, do you think that a card slabbed today would have a greater market value than if the slabbing was done say six years ago? While I don't profess to be an expert on slabbing cards, it seems to me that grading standards have gotten stricter over the years, while the awareness of and ability to detect the various methods of alteration has arguably improved. That would make a strong argument that a card's value would be enhanced if it could be shown that the slabbing was done recently. The flip side of the issue would be if the techniques of alteration have now become so advanced that it would actually improve a card's chances of being unaltered if it could be shown it was slabbed at an earlier less technologically-advanced time. |
#17
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: JimB
Dave said, |
#18
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: barrysloate
Jack- to answer your question there is a confidentiality agreement that I am sworn to, so even at the meeting no specifics will be discussed, just general issues. |
#19
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
JimB, |
#20
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Dave
I agree with Jim's assessment that the it's the auction house and sellers that are really to blame when it comes to sales that involve altered or trimmed cards. |
#21
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: barrysloate
To Dave and others who have responded to my post: |
#22
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Dan Koteles
is that nearly 30-40% of cards in holders are trimmed. Many 1's and 2's with the the severe corner rouding to me are all trimmed,paper just does not dissapear that much...cut in angles and |
#23
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: jackgoodman
Hi Barry, |
#24
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: barrysloate
It's actually a dinner, but nothing above and beyond what I posted will be mentioned at the dinner. Confidentiality means just that, it doesn't mean only ten guys get to hear the whole story. But we will be discussing among other things measures that can be taken to keep altered cards out of the marketplace, although how much we accomplish in that area is not clear. |
#25
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Anonymous
Jack, |
#26
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
Some of the things skilled paper restorers can do are truly remarkable. I would think that the latest technological gizmos a grading company may have will not mean much unless they have the people with the experience and expertise to know what to look for. And what Barry says is absolutely correct--though the great majority of paper restorers are upfront honest individuals who disclose their work and are hired by people with no intention to defraud, there are a few bad seeds who have the ability to do tremendous harm. I see the day coming with card collecting that we are already at with, say, autograph collecting. There, for many (most?) collectors an LOA from an autograph authentication company in the absence of any other corroborating documentation/evidence simply is not enough to eliminate all doubts as to the signature's authenticity. With cards it may become commonplace for collectors to insist on getting information about a card's provenance in order to feel comfortable the card has not been altered. |
#27
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: leon
If I am not mistaking many very rare/expensive coins have pedigrees. Maybe higher end cards will go that route? I also agree that trimming/micro-reshaping, or whatever you want to call it, is prevelent on grades 1-5, but won't be as epidemic as on higher grade cards. Everyone needs to read what whacky Dan K said too. He is absolutely correct.....Cards most likely don't disintegrate over time, at least not as much as is commonly seen with extremely rounded corners. I believe many lower grade cards had clipped corners at one time and then were rounded off, with rubbing, to make them look like they have normal wear. Just my little 'ole opinion...best regards |
#28
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Joann
Wow Dan and Leon. That makes sense. I've had a few cards that had corners so round I couldn't imagine how they could have gotten that way with no major creases or other damage. Cipped corners rounded off. Duh. |
#29
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: Joann
I still don't know about all of the trimming yet. People say it's a matter of QC or whatever at the grading companies. I'm in QC, and a failure rate of 30+ percent is just about impossible. Even something like 10% is hard to imagine. It still seems to me like this is a lot of trimmed edges that are getting by the graders, and I am not convinced that more of the cards are unaltered than we think. |
#30
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: jackgoodman
Jim, |
#31
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: barrysloate
I would be happy to report on the meeting Friday morning on the board. I'll start a new thread and we can get opinions from those who couldn't attend. |
#32
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Question about high end graded cards being trimmed
Posted By: JimCrandell
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