Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by steve B

Correct me if I am wrong, but the PSA group sub was in progress BEFORE all this shit went down. And also, I am not trimming my low grade cards. So I am not supposed to ever get cards graded because of the shennigans of others???

Umm... if the shenanigans are something that involves the grading company, and it looks more and more like they are involved, why would you want to
A) Give someone complicit in giving grades and thus approval as totally genuine to altered cards any business
B)Given that your stuff is fine, pay for the opinion of a company whose opinions are becoming more discredited daily.

May just as well bring back GAI, accucard, whoever that guy was who was pop riveting pictures cut from books into screwdowns… [/QUOTE]


Maybe everyone should just quit the hobby then. According to you, the whole thing is corrupt anyway. Let's everyone just leave.

[x2drich2000]

Maybe I have missed it, but have any other auction houses come out publicly and either confirmed they have not taken any consignments from Moser or admitted that they have taken consignments from him?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Maybe I have missed it, but have any other auction houses come out publicly and either confirmed they have not taken any consignments from Moser or admitted that they have taken consignments from him?

AHs are not going to confirm they have taken cards from known card doctors, of which there are many. IMO very few could deny it truthfully.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Let me be the first then.

I took cards from someone mentioned elsewhere in this series of threads. He is not, apparently, involved with PWCC, but I did not know he had a reputation for shenanigans. He consigned a bunch of wax which he disclosed to me failed BBCE. I looked at it all, shared the BBCE verdict with my buyers and offered my opinion on the items that I thought were obviously no good as well as the ones that were questionable. They brought nowhere near what "pure" unopened of a similar nature would have bought and buyers and consignor all seemed happy.

I was surprised to see his name, even tangentially, in these threads and it shouldn't be hard to figure out who it is. But he was honest and above board with me which is why I'm not going to out him by name.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Let me be the first then.

I took cards from someone mentioned elsewhere in this series of threads. He is not, apparently, involved with PWCC, but I did not know he had a reputation for shenanigans. He consigned a bunch of wax which he disclosed to me failed BBCE. I looked at it all, shared the BBCE verdict with my buyers and offered my opinion on the items that I thought were obviously no good as well as the ones that were questionable. They brought nowhere near what "pure" unopened of a similar nature would have bought and buyers and consignor all seemed happy.

I was surprised to see his name, even tangentially, in these threads and it shouldn't be hard to figure out who it is. But he was honest and above board with me which is why I'm not going to out him by name.

I personally do not care what has been done to a card as long as the seller discloses any and all problems they know about.

As far as Scott goes, in my personal experiences with him I would say he is by far the most honest guy in the AH business. He won me over when he honestly described cards he sold for me.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Maybe everyone should just quit the hobby then. According to you, the whole thing is corrupt anyway. Let's everyone just leave.

The hobby was around for a long time before grading. And will be around a long time after it.

I still don't understand giving more business to a company that from what I can see is either grossly incompetent. Or is involved in deliberately allowing altered cards to be graded.

But hey, it's PSA! They're the experts and final arbiters of all things cards. How dare we question them....

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by steve B

The hobby was around for a long time before grading. And will be around a long time after it.

I still don't understand giving more business to a company that from what I can see is either grossly incompetent. Or is involved in deliberately allowing altered cards to be graded.

But hey, it's PSA! They're the experts and final arbiters of all things cards. How dare we question them....

Not questioning them. But like I stated earlier, am I supposed to quit going to my gym because a few of the members there take steroids??? I know I DO NOT cheat. It's called ETHICS. It sounds like a few members need a class in it.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Not questioning them. But like I stated earlier, am I supposed to quit going to my gym because a few of the members there take steroids??? I know I DO NOT cheat. It's called ETHICS. It sounds like a few members need a class in it.

that gym analogy isn't a good one imo. would you keep going to the gym if it was proven that the gym equipment did't contribute to muscle building/overall health?

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

that gym analogy isn't a good one imo. would you keep going to the gym if it was proven that the gym equipment did't contribute to muscle building/overall health?

Oh, but the machines ARE working!! Compare myself to someone who doesn't work out at all (ie, a raw card) and you can see the difference. I sold a Mars Attacks checklist last night in PSA mid grade form for almost $1,000. If I were to sell the card raw, it would bring around 1/5 of that. Am I supposed to not get my cards graded because of the scams of others? Should I just leave the hobby entirely, as it is ALL corrupt?? I tell you what....you sell all your cards and never buy another card in your life and I will follow suit.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Not questioning them. But like I stated earlier, am I supposed to quit going to my gym because a few of the members there take steroids??? I know I DO NOT cheat. It's called ETHICS. It sounds like a few members need a class in it.

If you were an athlete competing at a very high level, that answer would be yes.
Cycling requires a written itinerary of where off-season training will be done, and who you do it with. Going outside the written plan without advance written notice is taken as a potentially positive test. If you train with dopers, or dopers coaches, or see their doctors you get bumped into the next level of suspicion, and get extra scrutiny.

If you don't want to be associated with dopers, you can work out at home, or in a gym with a better reputation.


Similarly, PSA readily grades cards that are altered, possibly knowing they're altered. It now appears that altering and getting the card to pass is just as prevalent as doping in cycling (In other words, depending on era anywhere from rampant to almost required.)
I'd consider any card in a PSA holder as suspect. That doesn't mean of course that the submitter altered it, but my level on confidence that the grade is correct and that the card is not altered is currently very low.

To avoid this, just like the cyclist could train in a less suspect gym, or at home, a collector could collect cards that aren't graded, or are graded by someone else. (Admittedly difficult, since all the big 3 have problems, and the rest either don't have enough track record, or are worse. )

[drcy]

A sensible response is not to spend $200,000.00 for a 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax or $15,000.00 for a 1980 Topps Rickey Henderson because it's in a PSA 10 holder.

Of course, then, that would have been the sensible thing to do in the first place.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by drcy

A sensible response is not to spend $200,000.00 for a 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax or $15,000.00 for a 1980 Topps Rickey Henderson because it's in a PSA 10 holder.

Of course, then, that would have been the sensible thing to in the first place.

Yep, I've always thought it was insane how much people put blind faith into PSA, especially when it came down to so much money and such minimal grade (opinion) difference.

If anything, I hope this entire mess helps recalibrate collector mindset a bit.

[calvindog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAm...ature=youtu.be


CLCT down over 9% today.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Yep, I've always thought it was insane how much people put blind faith into PSA, especially when it came down to so much money and such minimal grade (opinion) difference.

If anything, I hope this entire mess helps recalibrate collector mindset a bit.

I've always been baffled by that as well. Literally the very first card graded by the company was no good by their standards.