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  #1  
Old 10-22-2021, 07:22 AM
deweyinthehall deweyinthehall is offline
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Default Greg Morris Cards - Grading

I've been snatching up some '68s lately in Greg Morris auctions and have a question for folks with more experience with him.

The images for his cards listed as VG-VGEX look like they're really EX-MT - I can't find any flaws in them.

Are these lower grades actually of a higher quality than most other cards called "VG-VGEX"?
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  #2  
Old 10-22-2021, 07:31 AM
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Greg is one of the few larger dealers with a deserved reputation for very accurate grading. This is refreshing to see, as he is able to get good prices on raw cards in an arena where anymore - most dealers of that scale are moving only graded. But I digress.

Yes, if a VG-EX card looks like a 6, my assumption would be there is a hidden flaw somewhere and it is accurately graded with Greg. I've bought some higher grade commons raw from him in the past, and have always been very pleased with his grading when the cards arrive.
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:48 AM
deweyinthehall deweyinthehall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
Greg is one of the few larger dealers with a deserved reputation for very accurate grading. This is refreshing to see, as he is able to get good prices on raw cards in an arena where anymore - most dealers of that scale are moving only graded. But I digress.

Yes, if a VG-EX card looks like a 6, my assumption would be there is a hidden flaw somewhere and it is accurately graded with Greg. I've bought some higher grade commons raw from him in the past, and have always been very pleased with his grading when the cards arrive.
Thanks! I purchased a few VG 1952 commons from him a short time ago and was struck by how clean and sharp they were - pretty much EX in my book, and I think most other dealers would have advertised them as EX.

Last edited by deweyinthehall; 10-22-2021 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 10-22-2021, 08:05 AM
Gorditadogg Gorditadogg is offline
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Yep there is no shortage of ebay sellers who advertise their VG cards as EX.

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  #5  
Old 10-22-2021, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by deweyinthehall View Post
Thanks! I purchased a few VG 1952 commons from him a short time ago and was struck by how clean and sharp they were - pretty much EX in my book, and I think most other dealers would have advertised them as EX.
My guess is that his MO is to be super conservative with grading raw cards. This is why you are seeing "VG" cards look better. So many long term dealers who were reputable in the 80's and even earlier - have lost the script anymore when it comes to grading. Kit Young advertises vintage stars on eBay on a regular basis that anymore are up to 2 grades wrong. Yeah, that might have been "EX" in 1985, but...

Good move IMO by Greg Morris. Another who is an extremely accurate grader at least (if not a great pricer...) is Dean's cards. Their grading is very much on-point from all I have seen.
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Last edited by jchcollins; 10-22-2021 at 08:32 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-22-2021, 09:05 AM
deweyinthehall deweyinthehall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
My guess is that his MO is to be super conservative with grading raw cards. This is why you are seeing "VG" cards look better. So many long term dealers who were reputable in the 80's and even earlier - have lost the script anymore when it comes to grading. Kit Young advertises vintage stars on eBay on a regular basis that anymore are up to 2 grades wrong. Yeah, that might have been "EX" in 1985, but...

Good move IMO by Greg Morris. Another who is an extremely accurate grader at least (if not a great pricer...) is Dean's cards. Their grading is very much on-point from all I have seen.
I've noticed the same thing about Kit Young - when I was younger I always saw his adds, but never was into mail order. Now that I'm able to collect more seriously, I went back to him because, well "king of the commons" and all. Saw a lot of cards which looked mis graded (and priced accordingly!)
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  #7  
Old 10-22-2021, 09:33 AM
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Greg Morris VG-EX grading is quite accurate IMO. Usually, if you can't see an obvious flaw, it's a "bend" that doesn't penetrate the other side of the card, or some other reasonably minor thing. They look nice in person and you can, of course, see such things once in hand vs a scan which doesn't always show such detail (through no fault of GMC). Given the slabbing backlog, dealers with conservative or even accurate raw grading will likely continue to do well vs the overgraders, as they should.

Last edited by toppcat; 10-22-2021 at 09:34 AM.
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  #8  
Old 10-22-2021, 09:36 AM
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Always been pleased with cards bought from GM cards. I think his grading is spot on.
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  #9  
Old 10-22-2021, 11:02 AM
mortimer brewster mortimer brewster is offline
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I have purchased thousands of cards from GM over the past 10 years.

I probably have slightly overpaid due to his great reputation, but it is worth it for peace of mind.
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2021, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deweyinthehall View Post
I've noticed the same thing about Kit Young - when I was younger I always saw his adds, but never was into mail order. Now that I'm able to collect more seriously, I went back to him because, well "king of the commons" and all. Saw a lot of cards which looked mis graded (and priced accordingly!)
"King of the Commons" was actually Bill Henderson, but same type of dealer and they came out of the same era. Bill is either retired or dead; I went googling for him a while back out of sheer curiosity, but didn't find anything. Yeah, unfortunately the same type of stuff: Those guys got to where they would call anything EX, so long as there wasn't a noticeable crease. I get it based on how raw grading worked in the 1980's and earlier; this is the era I grew up in the hobby with. Unfortunately whether for right or wrong 25 years later, standards change. Yes, a card can be "below EX" with just corner problems and no creases. Happens all the time. Earlier this year, I was in a bit of a hurry and pulled the trigger on a '63 Koufax on eBay from Kit because it was centered. Advertised as "EX". The great centering aside, when the card arrived in the mail - it's probably a 3.5 at best. There is just too much corner wear on the full bleed borders for me to call it EX without lying to myself. Yes, my fault for being in a hurry - and it's still a nice enough card. But point being, this is how some of those guys grade still.
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Last edited by jchcollins; 10-22-2021 at 11:10 AM.
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  #11  
Old 10-22-2021, 11:27 AM
deweyinthehall deweyinthehall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
"King of the Commons" was actually Bill Henderson, but same type of dealer and they came out of the same era. Bill is either retired or dead; I went googling for him a while back out of sheer curiosity, but didn't find anything. Yeah, unfortunately the same type of stuff: Those guys got to where they would call anything EX, so long as there wasn't a noticeable crease. I get it based on how raw grading worked in the 1980's and earlier; this is the era I grew up in the hobby with. Unfortunately whether for right or wrong 25 years later, standards change. Yes, a card can be "below EX" with just corner problems and no creases. Happens all the time. Earlier this year, I was in a bit of a hurry and pulled the trigger on a '63 Koufax on eBay from Kit because it was centered. Advertised as "EX". The great centering aside, when the card arrived in the mail - it's probably a 3.5 at best. There is just too much corner wear on the full bleed borders for me to call it EX without lying to myself. Yes, my fault for being in a hurry - and it's still a nice enough card. But point being, this is how some of those guys grade still.
Yes - it was Bill Henderson! Wow - that takes me back to an earlier era...back in the day the only mail ordering I did was with Renata Galasso out of NYC.
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  #12  
Old 10-22-2021, 01:17 PM
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+1 that Greg Morris is a very conservative and accurate grader.

Any time I’ve purchased from him I found the cards to either be as advertised and in some cases under graded. I have never gotten a card from him that didn’t meet or exceed my expectations. The slightly higher prices his auctions get reflect that I think.
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  #13  
Old 10-22-2021, 08:51 PM
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Another +1 here for GMC as I've found his grading always either spot on or a bit conservative, unlike many other dealers on the 'bay. His tendency to grade conservatively is reflected in the prices he gets on his auctions.

Nothing that hasn't been said above, just another voice chiming in.
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  #14  
Old 10-22-2021, 10:02 PM
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I've sold several hundred cards through him in the last few months. As a client, he grades tough but fair. His EX is closer to ex-mt in my opinion. I think he is less critical on centering. Its given me a nice baseline by which to judge my own collection.
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Old 10-22-2021, 10:25 PM
Gorditadogg Gorditadogg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
My guess is that his MO is to be super conservative with grading raw cards. This is why you are seeing "VG" cards look better. So many long term dealers who were reputable in the 80's and even earlier - have lost the script anymore when it comes to grading. Kit Young advertises vintage stars on eBay on a regular basis that anymore are up to 2 grades wrong. Yeah, that might have been "EX" in 1985, but...

Good move IMO by Greg Morris. Another who is an extremely accurate grader at least (if not a great pricer...) is Dean's cards. Their grading is very much on-point from all I have seen.
For a seller that prices as high as Deans Cards does, every card should be graded right. I've only bought one card from them, a $5 card I got through COMC. It was described as EX but was really VG. Very dissapointing. If I can find it I will post it for you.

I am interested in what you bought from them. Based upon the ridiculous prices I see from them on I am curious where people have found something at a good value.

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  #16  
Old 10-22-2021, 11:31 PM
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I've always been happy with my purchases from Greg. His standards are generally strict, which is great for discriminating buyers. I haven't sold through him, but am considering it.

With respect to Dean's, I've also found the cards very fairly graded. Sometimes I find cards there at market prices or that are just unavailable elsewhere. While I don't buy much, I'm glad the option is out there.
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  #17  
Old 10-23-2021, 08:02 AM
mmcgruff mmcgruff is offline
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I’ve purchased some cards from Greg and I agree his raw grades are very strong and pleasing.
Btw, I’m curious if he’s related to Bruce Morris? Remember him? He was a long time dealer back in the 80’s advertising in the SCD’s.
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  #18  
Old 10-23-2021, 08:44 AM
deweyinthehall deweyinthehall is offline
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Not to take this string off topic, but one comment/question on Dean's:

Yeah, if you're looking for a hard-to-find item, he will probably have it.

But just as an example, he lists a 1978 Topps baseball set in what he considers NM/MT for $4,510.

Will this or any of the hundreds of other similarly priced items he has ever actually sell?? If so, who is the buyer? Certainly no one who knows anything about the hobby and/or someone with more money than brains, of which there seem to be a few in the hobby these days? I don't mean to sound cruel but is there any other answer?

I looked through his team sets yesterday - team sets from 1970s topps in the hundreds, and from the the 1960s in the thousands, without the Mantles in the case of most Yankees "sets".
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Old 10-23-2021, 10:27 AM
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I have gotten cards from both Greg Morris and Dean's and found both to be accurate in grading.

As I have said before, all of the cards I have gotten through Dean's are in very good - excellent condition or lesser. Anything above that seems to be overpriced.


looking at his sold items on Ebay, just about all are under $100. Many of the sold items say over $50 seem to be overpaid in my opinion. but someone is buying them just not in large amounts.

Great to see Bill Henserson mentioned. Bought a lot of cards from him years ago to help finish my sets.

Mike

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Old 10-25-2021, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorditadogg View Post
I am interested in what you bought from them. Based upon the ridiculous prices I see from them on I am curious where people have found something at a good value.
I said I think they grade fairly, I was not commenting on their pricing - which I will agree is generally high. I bought a lot of '67 Topps commons from Dean on eBay, which I think was relatively fairly priced. I will admit in a moment of weakness during the pandemic, I bought a '67 Topps high number - Brooks Robinson, PSA 5 from Dean. I will admit to overpaying, he had the nicest version of the card in the grade I was looking for at the time and I let my exuberance get the best of me during a time I probably hadn't even left my house for 10 straight days, LOL...
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  #21  
Old 10-26-2021, 10:47 PM
ASF123 ASF123 is offline
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I was just looking at some Greg Morris listings and saw a bunch of them with descriptions like “VG-EX (crease).” How does that work? Seems to me that that can’t possibly be accurate - VG-EX is incompatible with a crease.

Last edited by ASF123; 10-26-2021 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 10-26-2021, 11:20 PM
Tere1071 Tere1071 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASF123 View Post
I was just looking at some Greg Morris listings and saw a bunch of them with descriptions like “VG-EX (crease).” How does that work? Seems to me that that can’t possibly be accurate - VG-EX is incompatible with a crease.
I agree with you, but it seems that VG-EX has a wide space for interpretation, both raw and slabbed. I've seen and owned cards graded in VG-EX where they had a paper crease/wrinkle on the reverse that didn't show through the front. My 53 Bowman Snider is a PSA VG-EX due to lightly touched corners at the bottom and a moderate wax stain on the reverse. I also have a really nice SGC 4.5 (new label) Musial that has a dinged corner at the bottom left. On the other hand, I've seen VG-EX cards that have all four corners rounded, stained, a light crease, and toning on earlier cards.

I've purchased quite a few cards from Greg (100+) and for the most part, I've been satisfied. On several occasions, I've sent a card back to him that was graded as EX-MT, but I felt the corner wear was too much for the grade. With that said, I will use Greg's grading as a reference to others when I describe the condition of the cards I collect. I will also continue to purchase from Greg as I upgrade my sets.

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  #23  
Old 10-27-2021, 04:32 AM
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VG-EX cards can have creases. EX is where you shouldn't have creases.
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Old 10-27-2021, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASF123 View Post
I was just looking at some Greg Morris listings and saw a bunch of them with descriptions like “VG-EX (crease).” How does that work? Seems to me that that can’t possibly be accurate - VG-EX is incompatible with a crease.
What John said. VG-EX can have a crease, but anymore two decades into the 21st century, it probably needs to be more of a wrinkle. But I would agree that "EX" or PSA 5 is where you should draw the line to have no creases / wrinkles whatsoever. I have seen exceptions to this rule even from PSA, but it's pretty rare.
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Old 10-27-2021, 05:11 PM
ASF123 ASF123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
What John said. VG-EX can have a crease, but anymore two decades into the 21st century, it probably needs to be more of a wrinkle. But I would agree that "EX" or PSA 5 is where you should draw the line to have no creases / wrinkles whatsoever. I have seen exceptions to this rule even from PSA, but it's pretty rare.
How odd that apparently VG-EX can be so bad as to have a crease, and then I see PSA 4s that look like they’re EX-NM.
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Old 10-27-2021, 07:19 PM
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Default Greg Morris Cards - Grading

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How odd that apparently VG-EX can be so bad as to have a crease, and then I see PSA 4s that look like they’re EX-NM.

Not odd at all. This is why professional grading in many cases is more or less a scam. All grading is related to eye appeal, and therefore subjective. You can have a 4 with a difficult to spot wrinkle, and sharp corners that is more aesthetically appealing than a 6 with noticeable corner touches or centering problems. Happens all the time. The subjectivity and “difficult to pin down” nature of grading as a discipline is at least partially why it’s so profitable.


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Old 10-27-2021, 08:11 PM
ASF123 ASF123 is offline
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Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
Not odd at all. This is why professional grading in many cases is more or less a scam. All grading is related to eye appeal, and therefore subjective. You can have a 4 with a difficult to spot wrinkle, and sharp corners that is more aesthetically appealing than a 6 with noticeable corner touches or centering problems. Happens all the time. The subjectivity and “difficult to pin down” nature of grading as a discipline is at least partially why it’s so profitable.


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Oh, I know - I was being facetious. Completely agree with you that grading is a lot of BS.
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Old 10-27-2021, 08:40 PM
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I've bought from Greg in the past, and have been pleased with my orders. Nothing else to add about him that hasn't already been said.

No comment on Dean's pricing, but I couldn't make heads or tails of this listing, for a 1971 Topps Boston Red Sox team set (emphasis added):

Quote:
This almost complete set contains 28 cards out of the possible 28 cards. This is not a complete set.
"The following cards have been omitted, in order to keep the cost of the set reasonable, and can be purchased separately."#692 AL Rookies - Pitchers - Wayne Twitchell / Rogelio Moret / Hal Haydel and #65 AL HR Leaders - Frank Howard / Harmon Killebrew / Carl Yastrzemski This set does not include the following cards:
The cards ranked by Value:

1971 Topps #176 - Doug Griffin / Bob Montgomery Red Sox Rookies: PSA 8 - NM/MT
1971 Topps #577 Jim Lonborg : PSA 6 - EX/MT
1971 Topps #530 Carl Yastrzemski : 6 - EX/MT
1971 Topps #386 Red Sox Team: 8 - NM/MT
1971 Topps #305 Reggie Smith : 7 - NM
1971 Topps #61 - Alex Johnson / Tony Oliva / Carl Yastrzemski AL Batting Leaders : 6 - EX/MT
1971 Topps #498 John Kennedy : 7 - NM
1971 Topps #512 - Mike Garman / Dick Mills Red Sox Rookies: 8 - NM/MT
1971 Topps #63 - Tony Conigliaro / Frank Howard / Boog Powell AL RBI Leaders : 6 - EX/MT
1971 Topps #89 Ken Brett : 7 - NM
1971 Topps #446 Bobby Bolin : 7 - NM
1971 Topps #114 Billy Conigliaro : 6 - EX/MT
So is it a complete set or not? If not, and the list of cards are the ones excluded, that's almost half the set, including all the stars and rookies.
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Old 10-27-2021, 08:44 PM
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I've bought from Greg in the past, and have been pleased with my orders. Nothing else to add about him that hasn't already been said.

No comment on Dean's pricing, but I couldn't make heads or tails of this listing, for a 1971 Topps Boston Red Sox team set (emphasis added):



So is it a complete set or not? If not, and the list of cards are the ones excluded, that's almost half the set, including all the stars and rookies.
Well yeah, he has to leave those cards out so he can keep the price at only $400!
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  #30  
Old 10-28-2021, 05:36 AM
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Oh, I know - I was being facetious. Completely agree with you that grading is a lot of BS.
Sorry. I can be tone deaf even to the sarcasm anymore, because so many people it seems still don't understand grading, or just want to pretend it's something it's not. As a collector I still love a properly graded card in a nice slab, but since the pandemic - the hoops and expense around getting your own raw cards graded combined with the borderline fraud that has always existed just became too much for me. Right now I'm trying to enjoy my remaining raw cards for what they are - with the notion that eye appeal and a technical grade don't necessarily have to coexist within a slab...
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  #31  
Old 10-28-2021, 12:34 PM
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Allow me to echo the other sentiments. Greg Morris has been a major source of raw cards for my 52 and 56 Topps sets, and I've been immensely pleased by the quality of what he offers. I agree, if anything he undergrades his cards, and I deeply respect this and his attention to honesty and fair dealing.
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Old 10-30-2021, 03:43 AM
Gorditadogg Gorditadogg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASF123 View Post
I was just looking at some Greg Morris listings and saw a bunch of them with descriptions like “VG-EX (crease).” How does that work? Seems to me that that can’t possibly be accurate - VG-EX is incompatible with a crease.
Just FYI, Greg Morris doesn't have any "VG-EX" listings. They are all "VG to VG-EX".

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  #33  
Old 10-30-2021, 09:09 AM
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Also his listing on Friday nights tend to be for the collectors who collect low grade items.
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Old 10-30-2021, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by deweyinthehall View Post
Yes - it was Bill Henderson! Wow - that takes me back to an earlier era...back in the day the only mail ordering I did was with Renata Galasso out of NYC.
Someone needs to set up a "Hall of Fame" for some of these early dealers, Richard Gelman, Larry Fritsch Cards (who had everything but for about 5x what you could get it for anywhere else), Renato Galasso, Bill Henderson, Paul Marchant...
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