Reconstructing 1957 Topps Football uncut sheets

[stevepoland]

I'm down a rabbits hole trying to figure this puzzle out. There's a fantastic resource of partial sheets here: https://www.footballcardgallery.com/...et/1957_Topps/

The set is 154 cards total. People discuss it as being 1-88 low number cards and 89-154 as high number cards. There's speculation this was released as two series', but the author of the above article disagrees with that.

It seems this year they used 264-card sheet, cut in half, thus 132 card sheet [12x11].

I've read some posts about earlier Topps Baseball sheets, and I've seen '77' talked about, which would be 7 rows [I call them rows, the author above calls them columns] -- and then 5 rows. Ironically, the big partial sheet we have is 7 rows [77] cards.

Given the author's partials, I have determined that card 43 is printed 3x somehow on the sheets. The same can be told for others, but this card for sure. Each row [looks like a column in the author's post] are the same, but then duplicated in various spots.

I'm trying to determine how these 154 cards would have been arranged on the sheets, and whether it's just two 132 card sheets, or if there were more.

I'm hoping someone might be aware of an earlier Topps (1957+) baseball set/series in which I might be able to see some madness to how they placed these rows on the sheet. It seems that there's always 2 rows of low-numbers or 2 rows of high-numbers next to each other.

I also wonder if things are broken up as 88 and 66. I'm kind of with the opinion that the sheets/cards were all released at the same time, but I'm having a hard time determining how some cards are printed 3 different times (given the partials we have) -- and my only explainer would be that: if 2 132-card sheets, then maybe the row with 43 is printed twice on one sheet (next to different rows) and printed once on the second sheet? Otherwise, there are four total 132-card sheets if there were indeed two series released? [Maybe the 7-row partial sheet we have, which has 4-rows of high-numbers, then has one row of low numbers missing and then the same 4-rows of high numbers are reprinted on the same sheet? And maybe the second sheet has the remaining high numbers printed on it, with low number rows as fillers too?]

Any help or reference to other 1957+ Topps series/sets/uncuts are appreciated for trying to determine how these 1-88 and 89-154 cards were printed on these sheets.

[Cliff Bowman]

I'm guessing the 1st Series is 88 cards in which all 88 cards are printed three times on a 264 card super sheet (two 132 card slits printed together) and the 2nd Series is 66 cards in which all 66 cards are printed four times on a 264 card super sheet (two 132 card slits printed together). The other aternative is two Series of 77 cards which would create 33 4x cards and 44 3x cards in each Series. I would be surprised if they took that route. ETA after looking at that link you posted I am obviously wrong, there must be SP's or DP's the way they printed that set.

[stevepoland]

Cliff, thanks for the reply. That math makes a lot of sense. Only issue is there are high numbers mixed with low numbers on the sheets. But maybe the overall answer is that there are two super sheets, and the low number rows are printed 3x and high numbers are printed 4x.

Have you ever seen anything where 2 rows are always printed together and so on a 12-row sheet there’s really 6 sections? (Or alternate view is- “there’s 2 sections of 6 rows”— that sounds more normal right? (I’m so used to seeing 4,4,4)

[Cliff Bowman]

I think the person from that site is probably correct, one slit has 132 different cards and the other slit has 110 of those same cards and 22 different cards that aren’t on the other slit, which creates a total of 110 2x cards and 44 1x cards. I would have to look at eBay, COMC, and Dean’s Cards to try get an idea of which cards are twice as available as the SP cards.

[Cliff Bowman]

I will post everything I found that isn't on that site. First I will do three 9 card panels I found on WorthPoint. I will post identifiable miscuts next.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here are the miscut combos I have, Bassett to the right of Womble, Carson to the left of Ferguson, Gedman above Brito, Hirsch above Johnson, Hirsch is likely a right edge card, Hornung is likely a left edge (header) card, Dibble is to the left of Root, Spinney is to the left of Putnam, Berry is above Vessels, Retzlaff is above Watkins.

[nearmint]

Hi all, I'm the guy with the web page. Steve pointed out this thread to me and sent me pictures of the panels and miscuts I hadn't seen. I had a few new pics squirreled away, too. I have added the new finds to the diagrams at the bottom of the page, but I need to go back and update the text. I'll also read through your thoughts above. It might be awhile; I'm busy with other things in the summer.

Thanks for Steve for bringing me into the conversation, and to Steve and Cliff for the new (to me, at least) pictures. It's good to meet more puzzle lovers!

More to think about: Steve mentions above that card #43 is printed three times on the sheets. After adding the new finds, I see that card #32, Bobby Layne, appears at least three times, also.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by nearmint

More to think about: Steve mentions above that card #43 is printed three times on the sheets. After adding the new finds, I see that card #32, Bobby Layne, appears at least three times, also.

#43 Brown and #32 Layne are on the same eleven card row, that throws a monkey wrench in the theory that 10 rows are 2x and 4 rows are 1x if at least one row is 3x. I have a few new ones, Howard Ferguson is to the left of Leon Hart, Ray Krouse is to the left of Earl Morrall, Leon Hart is to the left of Fred Morrison, this creates a new complete 11 card row of Hornung-Youngelman-Shaw-Younger-Krouse-Morrall-Conerly-Ferguson-Hart-Morrison. I also have another new complete 11 card row, Tasseff-Waller-Lary-McPeak-R Brown-LeBaron-Dillon-Creekmur-Baker-Tunnell-Vessells. I also found Hugh McElhenney is to the left of Tom Wilson.

[nearmint]

#43 Brown and #32 Layne are on the same eleven card row, that throws a monkey wrench in the theory that 10 rows are 2x and 4 rows are 1x if at least one row is 3x.

Yep, it sure does. I'll update the text when I get a chance. Thanks for the new miscuts; I'll add those into the mix, too.

[Cliff Bowman]

This one was an ordeal to figure out, Chuck Drazenovich is above Torgy Torgeson in the 10th column.

[nearmint]

This one was an ordeal to figure out, Chuck Drazenovich is above Torgy Torgeson in the 10th column.

Impressive, Cliff!

[Cliff Bowman]

Clarence Peaks is under Johnny Olszewski in the third column, that means I can hook up Watkins-Marchetti to Peaks and create a near comple row of Watkins-Marchetti-Peaks-Soltau-Summerall-Sherman-Heinrich-Hanner-Mathews-Drazenovich-?, currently missing the 11th right edge card.

[Cliff Bowman]

While trying to figure out who is above Carl Tasseff (who is a header card) I compared all 45 remaining cards to the Tasseff miscut and it has to be Hugh McElhenny, none of the other cards are anywhere close. With Tom Wilson to the right of McElhenny that makes a near complete new row of McElhenny-Wilson-?-?-Webster-Meilinger-Starr-Dibble-Root-Ford-Berry.

[Cliff Bowman]

#16 John Johnson is above #75 Sid Hudson, that makes Johnson the missing 11th card in the Watkins row and completes it at Watkins-Marchetti-Peaks-Soltau-Summerall-Sherman-Heinrich-Hanner-Mathews-Drazenovich-J Johnson.

[Cliff Bowman]

The puzzle pieces are falling into place now, Hirsch is in C11 of the Retzlaff row because he is above John Johnson, this in turn puts Bielski in C11 of the Stonesifer row because Bielski is above Hirsch per the site, which in turn puts Brito in C10 of the Stonesifer row because Brito is to the left of Bielski per the site, Tittle is in C10 of the Retzlaff row and Brewster is in C9 of the Retlaff because they are above Mathews and Drazenovich of the Watkins row per the site.

[Cliff Bowman]

This leaves 13 open slots, C3 and C4 of the McElhenny row, C4-C9 of the Stonesifer row, and C4-C8 of the Retzlaff row. There is a two card combo of Christiansen-Chandnois per the site, a two card combo of Butler-Ameche per the site, a three card combo of Boyd-Gifford-Howton per the site, a five card combo of Forester-Rogel-Womble-Bassett-B Wilson, and a loose card of Jeter. I have a miscut Jack Butler that shows the bottom of the cartoon of the card to its left that has a distinctive stray black line. I was able to match it up perfectly to Howton, so that creates a five card run of Boyd-Gifford-Howton-Butler-Ameche. This forces the two card combo of Christiansen-Chandnois into C3 and C4 of the McElhenny row.

[Cliff Bowman]

This leaves 11 open slots, C4-C9 of the Stonesifer row and C4-C8 of the Retzlaff row. There are two 5 card runs, Forester-Rogal-Womble-Bassett-B Wilson and Boyd-Gifford-Howton-Butler-Ameche, and a loose card of Jeter. That means Jeter is in either C4 or C9 of the Stonesifer row and the two 5 card combos go into the two open 5 card slots. Hopefully new miscuts can be found to place those cards.

[Cliff Bowman]

As it turns out there are 10 DP rows and 4 SP rows as we suspected, the Hornung, McElhenny, Bingham, and Nickel rows are obviously SP and the Tasseff, Rote, Stonesifer, Retzlaff, Watkins, McCormack, Tarasovic, E Brown, Carpenter, and Bratkowski rows are definitely DP.

[Cliff Bowman]

This partial Slit has the bottom seven rows

McCormack
Tarasovic
Ed Brown
Bingham
Nickel
Carpenter
Bratkowski

I would say without a doubt this particular Slit goes

Tasseff
Tobin Rote
Stonesifer
Retzlaff
Watkins
McCormack
Tarasovic
Ed Brown
Bingham
Nickel
Carpenter
Bratkowski

[nearmint]

As it turns out there are 10 DP rows and 4 SP rows as we suspected, the Hornung, McElhenny, Bingham, and Nickel rows are obviously SP and the Tasseff, Rote, Stonesifer, Retzlaff, Watkins, McCormack, Tarasovic, E Brown, Carpenter, and Bratkowski rows are definitely DP.

That was my thinking, too, but as mentioned above, I've found pictures showing that Bobby Layne and Ed Brown each had three different cards below them.

The 7-row panel above shows Jim David below Bobby Layne. One of the 9-card panels above shows Bill McPeak below Layne. And here's a miscut John Unitas card that shows Layne above it.



The fact that the low- and high-number cards are in their own rows makes me wonder if they were printed on separate sheets first, then combined onto a common sheet. Also, the player names on the Colts and Browns cards (with one exception) have white player names on low-number cards and black player names on high-number cards, which suggests to me that Topps made an adjustment when designing the high-number cards.

What are your thoughts, Cliff?

[Cliff Bowman]

I ran the numbers of the non superstar players from each row and the 10 DP rows are roughly the same, and the 4 SP rows are roughly the same. I didn't see any evidence that any of the 10 DP rows were printed more than the other 9, and I didn't see any evidence that any of the 4 SP rows were printed more than the other 3. I think Topps made two different 264 card super sheets (four 132 card Slits) with each Slit having one each of the 10 DP rows and 2 of the Slits having 2 of the 4 SP rows and the other 2 Slits having the 2 other SP rows. Why they would do that I don't know.

[nearmint]

I ran the numbers of the non superstar players from each row and the 10 DP rows are roughly the same, and the 4 SP rows are roughly the same. I didn't see any evidence that any of the 10 DP rows were printed more than the other 9, and I didn't see any evidence that any of the 4 SP rows were printed more than the other 3. I think Topps made two different 264 super sheets (four 132 card Slits) with each Slit having one each of the 10 DP rows and 2 of the Slits having 2 of the 4 SP rows and the other 2 Slits having the 2 other SP rows. Why they would do that I don't know.

I can't imagine why they would have done that, either, but I found the same clear SP/DP split when I compared common cards in PSA's population report.

[Cliff Bowman]

Unless I have a flaw somewhere (wouldn't be the first time) I believe I have completed the seven missing rows from the 1957 Topps Football set. I found a miscut Bill Forester showing a sliver of the card to its left, which has to be either Perry Jeter, Johnny Olszewski, or Jim Patton. The border line of the bottom of the cartoon on the miscut Forester has a unique flaw where the black line gets very thin in two spots towards the left, I compared it to the black line on Jeter, Olszewski, and Patton, and it is a perfect match with Patton. That puts the five card run of Forester-Rogel-Womble-Bassett-B Wilson into C4-C8 of the Stonesifer row, Jeter in C9 of the Stonesifer row, and the five card run of Boyd-Gifford-Howton-Butler-Ameche into C4-C8 of the Retzlaff row.

[Cliff Bowman]

Since the Ed Brown row is above three different rows, Tasseff, Bingham, Carpenter, I don't think there is any way possible for it to work on one 264 card super sheet of two 132 card slits. I came up with a possible scenario of two different 264 card super sheets with one having two 132 card slits of the 1st Series 1-88 that would go:

Tasseff
T Rote
Stonesifer
Retzlaff
Watkins
McCormack
Tarasovic
E Brown
Tasseff
T Rote
Stonesifer
Retzlaff

and the other one would go:

Watkins
McCormack
Tarasovic
E Brown
Tasseff
T Rote
Stonesifer
Retzlaff
Watkins
McCormack
Tarasovic
E Brown

and then the other 264 card super sheet would have two 132 card slits that contain both the 1st Series 1-88 and the 2nd Series 89-144 with one slit going:

Tasseff
T Rote
Stonesifer
Retzlaff
Watkins
McCormack
Tarasovic
E Brown
Bingham
Nickel
Carpenter
Bratkowski

and the other:

Hornung
McElheeny
Tasseff
T Rote
Stonesifer
Retzlaff
Watkins
McCormack
Tarasovic
E Brown
Carpenter
Bratkowski

This would satisfy the three known row changes and explain why there are no known cards above the Hornung row or under the Bratkowski row. The only possible problem I have is that the quantities of the 1st Series cards 1-88 should be noticeably higher than the 2nd Series DP rows of Carpenter and Bratkowski but they don't seem to be. ETA maybe Topps printed many more of the two slits with all 144 cards than the two slits with only 1-88.

[Cliff Bowman]

A little while after writing the previous post it dawned on me what is probably the solution to the dilemma on how the 1957 Topps Football Slits were printed. Yes, there are three 9 card panels showing the Ed Brown row directly above the Carl Tasseff row, but they are all blank backed and I now believe these are pre-production proof panels cut from a full pre-production proof sheet and were never actually printed and issued in packs. There are no known miscuts of E Brown row cards above Tasseff row cards that I am aware of. This would result in the most plausible explanation that there was only one 264 card super sheet with two Slits that went:

Tasseff
T Rote
Stonesifer
Retzlaff
Watkins
McCormack
Tarasovic
E Brown
Bingham SP
Nickel SP
Carpenter
Bratkowski

and

Hornung SP
McElheeny SP
Tasseff
T Rote
Stonesifer
Retzlaff
Watkins
McCormack
Tarasovic
E Brown
Carpenter
Bratkowski

This would explain why the ten DP rows have very similar quantities and the four SP rows have very similar quantities. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...cut-2147615596

[stevepoland]

I have not caught up with this entire thread yet, but possibly instead of looking for 2-row or 4-row duplicates, it’s possible there are 1-row duplicates as seen in the 1957 Topps Basketball sheet. Thus, maybe things were just not standardized at all in 1957, versus even as early as 1958 sheets, which seem to have more of a pattern.

[Cliff Bowman]

I know nothing about the 1957-58 Topps Basketball set (I knew nothing about the 1957 Topps Football set a month ago) but that is just a standard Topps 88 card slit there, 8 unique rows and then repeat the first 4 rows. The other slit would be just the opposite. ETA okay, I see it now, six cards were double printed on the fifth and sixth rows. That is pretty wild. I read that the 1957-8 Topps Basketball set is 80 cards so I guess that means 8 total cards would be double printed over the two slits.