OT (sort of) -- Some venting from an ebay seller

[cubsguy1969]

Hi, guys. This is kind of off topic, but it could easily apply to sales of cards, so I'm hoping Leon will let me vent here.

Has anyone else noticed that buyers are getting more and more demanding, sometimes to the point of obnoxiousness? I’d say 95 percent (maybe a little higher) are great, but then there’s that 3 to 5 percent. People who expect everything shipped out 2 minutes after they make a purchase, people who demand tracking and insurance on a $10 item but don’t want to pay for it, people who ask you to lie on customs forms, etc., etc. Maybe it’s just coincidence and I’ve had a run of bad luck, but it seems that way.

Anyway, here’s the latest one. I sold some mid-19th century books for about $220 to a Canadian buyer. He paid quickly (much appreciated), but then asked me to lie on the customs form and put the value at $10, and to claim it was a sample. I refused, he got nasty, and we eventually voided the transacation and agreed to part ways (fairly amicably after many e-mail exchanges).

So then I send a second-chance offer to the underbidder (at $212 or something). No response. I shoot him an e-mail to see if he’s interested in the books for $200 and I’ll throw in shipping. He agrees, I send him my info, and I never hear back from him. I send him another message asking if he changed his mind. No response. I e-mail him once more, asking for him to please let me know, and telling him I’ll make it a buy-it-now just on the chance that he’s fearful my second-chance offer was a scam. No response. I give up and relist the books, with my opening bid of $100 (which I would have been perfectly happy getting in the first place). Guess who won the auction for $107. That underbidder. Should I be pissed? I don’t care all that much that he got them for cheaper. I took my chances relisting the books with the $100 opening bid. I just find it extremely distasteful that he ignored my repeated messages, backed out of an agreement without a word to me, then bid in the auction and got the books at a much cheaper price. (In hindsight, I should have blocked him. But I hate to do that to people.)

Anyway, what do you guys think? I’m very tempted to simply reneg on the auction and just take the negative feedback. It galls me to have to send this guy the books. And again, it’s not about the money. Obviously, I’d like the higher price, but that’s not what bothers me.

Feel free to share your thoughts and other issues maybe you’ve had as an ebay seller. I’ve been both buyer and seller, and I believe ebay’s weighed things so heavily in the buyer’s favor that it’s to the point of ridiculousness. Anyway, thanks for letting me vent.


Rob

[vintagetoppsguy]

I feel your pain, but it is possible that the underbidder who won the auction the second time around could have had a much higher proxy (maybe $200?) and no one out bid him. Just saying. Either way, I see your point about the fact that he did not even bother to return your email.

And regarding your first point, yes it seems like buyers have gotten much more demanding.

[Matt]

Without a seller being able to leave negative feedback for a buyer, there isn't anything to stop a buyer from having unreasonable demands.

[Jim VB]

It was wrong for him to agree to do the deal and then back out, But he may have had his bid in the initial auction pushed to the max by the first winner.

What was the bid of the third highest guy? One increment over that would have been enough to win if the original winner had not ever bid.

Sometimes those second chance offers aren't really fair.

[cubsguy1969]

That's a fair point about his bid being pushed up. The third-place bidder was considerably lower. But what he bid initially was rendered irrelevant by the fact that he agreed to purchase the books for $200 (in my humble opinion anyway). And the books are massive. Beautiful old Shakespeare books that are not cheap to ship, even at media rates. So I was giving him a break there. Sigh. It's just frustrating when people don't have the decency to do what they say they're going to do. All he had to say was, "Sorry, I changed my mind."

[peterose4hof]

Ebay's rule changes the past couple of years have given the buyers all the power now. To quote Jim Carrey, sometimes you just have to "bend over and take it up the tailpipe!"

[usernamealreadytaken]

I will chime in on the Customs declaration ask. Buyers from Canada always ask I do this (I believe it saves them $ somehow?). Anyway, I don't mind helping out but the form pretty much provides that lying is considered fraud and puts me, the seller, in a tuff spot. I don't like shipping to Canada amyway (either pay out the wazoo for registered mail, or cross your fingers).

[Bilko G]

I dont blame him for backing out of the 2nd chance offer (although he should have told you and it sounds like it was more of a verbal "2ndchance offer", then the actual ebay one). He might have agreed to the "verbal 2nd chance offer" and then talked it over with friends or even posted in a forum like this and people could have put it in his mind that he was shilled, especially liked mentioned if it pushed his high bid to the brink. Its your books, so obviously your choice, but i would complete the deal or it will appear (to the buyer) that you shilled the first auction and are not happy with the 2nd auction price that he won. Just my opinion.

[Matthew H]

I almost never respond to second chance offers. Especially ones that come in real soon after the auction. I have become a skeptical buyer with all of the stuff that goes on. I can't help but to assume that "second chance offer" means "I over shilled my auction". If it were me bidding on your books, I would respond better to an e-mail describing what happened along with an offer. Your story sound like fact so I would be confident as a buyer.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by usernamealreadytaken

I will chime in on the Customs declaration ask. Buyers from Canada always ask I do this (I believe it saves them $ somehow?).

It can save Canadians duty fees. Sometimes, but not always on a larger purchase (over $100 or so), the Canadian government will charge a duty fee. Probably be about $40 bucks on a $200 purchase.

[Bosox Blair]

Not defending the "second chance" bidder, as he should have done things differently, BUT as a seller, you need to be aware that the second chance bidder may suspect shilling (ie. the seller or someone on his behalf pushes the bidding as high as it will go, wins, and the seller's whole intent is then to approach the second chance bidder with a story about the top bidder bailing out...which was the plan all along).

All I'm saying is that second chance bidders have a lot of possible concerns between possible shilling, scam contacts, etc.

Cheers,
Blair

[cubsguy1969]

That's a good point about shilling, too. That hadn't occurred to me. Obviously, I don't do that.
I actually did explain to him that the previous buyer had been unreasonable to deal with and that he wanted me to lie on a customs form.

[cubsguy1969]

As for second-chance offers being scams (I'm definitely aware of that), I did send an e-mail offering to make it a buy-it-now so he'd feel more comfortable. No response.

[cubsguy1969]

And one more thing. It was probably a week or so after the auction ended when I sent him the second-chance offer. The initial buyer and I bickered over e-mail for a few days.

[drdduet]

I wouldn't recommend backing out of your latest transaction....

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by cubsguy1969

As for second-chance offers being scams (I'm definitely aware of that), I did send an e-mail offering to make it a buy-it-now so he'd feel more comfortable. No response.

I think your BIN idea is a smart solution to address that concern!

Cheers,
Blair

[barrysloate]

Cubsguy- seems like you handled the transaction professionally and that a lot of things went wrong with this deal. That happens sometimes. And as somebody said you can't get mad at the underbidder winning the lot for $107 because he may have left a $200 snipe.

I think you do have to go through with the transaction and just write the experience off. Several things just went wrong at the same time.

[slidekellyslide]

I've only had to offer a second chance on a high dollar item once...the top bidder reneged and said that he entered the wrong amount so I contacted the underbidder and gave him the top bidder's ebay ID so he could check the guy out himself and see that it wasn't me shilling him. He paid me within minutes of the offer. I've been selling a lot on ebay lately and have had almost no problems...I expected to have a ton of problems with ebay's system weighted so heavily in favor of the buyer. You just have to be careful.

A Canadian recently won a big lot of airplane models from me...after I clearly stated in the auction "no international bidders on this lot"...he said that was no problem and that he would just pay with paypal and have me send them to his brother in Utah <----BIG RED FLAG!!! Never send to a different address than the one listed on the paypal account or you WILL GET SCREWED...I told the guy that I wanted a money order if he wants me to send them to his brother. He agreed. I don't think he's trying to scam me, but you can't be too careful.

[M's_Fan]

I never ship out of the U.S. Besides being a pain in the butt to ship international, I like the idea that my cards are staying in the good old U.S.A Maybe that makes me xenophobic or whatever.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Can't be mad at the buyer. What was the third under bidders price that should've been bin price, the Canadian screwed you not the underbidder.

[smtjoy]

I have only accepted one 2nd chance offer and that was at a price just above the 3rd bidder. Too easy to shill on ebay and no way of knowing the truth to trust a second chance offer any other way.

I would just complete the transaction as is.

[jb217676]

Originally Posted by M's_Fan

I never ship out of the U.S. Besides being a pain in the butt to ship international, I like the idea that my cards are staying in the good old U.S.A Maybe that makes me xenophobic or whatever.

Pretty close-minded statement there. If all U.S. sellers thought the same as you, how would an upstanding Canadian like myself get any cards? Most auctions are U.S. based.

(maybe those cards were originally made from Canadian trees and are just returning home?)

[rdixon1208]

I disagree with most of you. I wouldn't ship the books. I think I would take it personal if a guy stopped returning my emails after a deal had been made but before a payment was received.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by jb217676

Pretty close-minded statement there. If all U.S. sellers thought the same as you, how would an upstanding Canadian like myself get any cards? Most auctions are U.S. based.

(maybe those cards were originally made from Canadian trees and are just returning home?)

There are 34 million of us, you know!

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

I disagree with most of you. I wouldn't ship the books. I think I would take it personal if a guy stopped returning my emails after a deal had been made but before a payment was received.

I've actually (just on a few occasions), blocked a bidder from my auctions just because he/she was a hassle to deal with. This wouldn't have helped you in this case as there weren't any higher bids, but it could have alleviated your aggravations with the person.

[cubsguy1969]

Yeah, after I didn't hear from the guy and before I relisted the books, I did briefly consider blocking him. But I frankly didn't think he'd have the temerity to bid again after ignoring me. Should've know better.

And I have to disagree a little about not being mad at the second bidder. I'll probably ultimately take the high road and just ship him the books, but I think I still have the right to be annoyed with him. He didn't "screw me," per se. But he certainly didn't act very professionally.

[FUBAR]

I will chime in on the fees us Canadians pay as i know exactly what it is.

We have to pay taxes on all imported items over $20 cdn value. The taxes vary by province. In BC where i am , it is 12% tax plus a 5$ service fee for the honor of charging you the tax. So on $220, it would be close to $30 he would have to pay. SOme provinces , it is 15.25 % and Alberta is only 5%

Now if someone sends it UPS rather then mail, we have to pay a 35$ (this amount may have changed) customs clearance fee in addition to the charges.

[FUBAR]

Originally Posted by M's_Fan

I never ship out of the U.S. Besides being a pain in the butt to ship international, I like the idea that my cards are staying in the good old U.S.A Maybe that makes me xenophobic or whatever.

You probably cost yourself some decent dollars.... I don't get it, i live by the border and i have shipped using the US post office, it is very easy and friendly to use. Its not different, you put a card in a holder, in an envelope , add postage and mail....

The ones that puzzle me are the guys who have listings that primarily Canadians would be interested in, but wont ship here. I collect MMA cards and Georges St. Pierre is a prime example. 90% of his fan base is here, but alot of US sellers wont ship his cards here. Real Stooooopid if you ask me!

Such a closed opinion M's, if i had the same opinon.. I've only been ripped off on ebay by Americans... but a closed mind, and thinking all Americans are the same would be silly! Your money spends just like mine does!

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by byrone

There are 34 million of us, you know!

On the subject of writing off Canadian bidders, sellers should consider that in auctions you want as many bidders as possible to achieve the highest auction result. The population of Canada is about the same as the State of California. Would you want to write off bidders from the State of California? Another fact to consider is that Canada's economy over the last couple years has been (at least by some measures) stronger than the US economy. Canadians are spending more freely than Americans. And the exchange rate movement has made it more affordable for Canadians to buy items priced in US dollars.

All that said, if a seller feels like writing off the market of a whole country...feel free to lose money!

Cheers,
Blair

[glchen]

I think the common reason a lot of sellers, including myself, don't sell to Canada is tracking/delivery confirmation, or lack thereof. Correct me if I'm wrong but it's hard to track packages shipped to Canada and because of customs, it takes forever. As a buyer, I had a cards arrive significantly faster that were shipped from Norway than were sent from Canada. The issue with tracking is that if the seller can't properly confirm delivery, the buyer can more easily scam the seller and get a refund through ebay.

[drc]

I sell non-sport photos where many collectors are international. I've always allowed international bidding, because someone bidding is to my benefit and someone not bidding is to my financial detriment. I haven't had trouble with winning bidders.

In general, it's not a good thing for the seller to be blocking bidders unless there is a specific, real problem.