T206 Brown OLD MILL's....Prints vs No-Prints

[tedzan]

Lately, there seems to be some confusion regarding this T206 back. Therefore, I am reprising this survey of Brown
OLD MILL cards, in order to hopefully allay this confusion.

1st press runs (150 series) of T206 Southern Leaguer (SL) cards include 34 of the 48 SL subjects, that were printed
with Brown HINDU and OLD MILL backs. Imagine that in the course of printing the 34 SL cards with these 2 backs,
there was an instance of a mix-up in the ink application, resulting in the printing of a number of Brown OLD MILL's.

Just my theory.....however, it is a plausible explanation for the existence of these Brown OLD MILL backs. To date,
the proof of this conjecture is evident by this fact....the only Brown OLD MILL's that have been found are from this
group of 34 SL cards that were first printed with Brown HINDU backs.

Here are the Southern Leaguer's from this group of 34 with Brown OLD MILL backs that have been confirmed.........

Bay
Bernhard....................Brown OLD MILL
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster........................Brown OLD MILL
Fritz
Greminger...................Brown OLD MILL
Guiheen
Helm..........................Brown OLD MILL
Hickman
Hooker
Howard
Jordan
Kiernan......................Brown OLD MILL
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige.........................Brown OLD MILL
Perdue
Persons
Reagan.......................Brown OLD MILL
Revelle.......................Brown OLD MILL
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Smith (Atlanta)............Brown OLD MILL
Thornton.....................Brown OLD MILL
Violat


In the next post, I'll list the 14 Southern Leaguer's (350-only series), that if my theory is correct, I claim will NEVER
be found with the Brown OLD MILL back.

Please show or tell us of your Brown OLD MILL's. Especially, if there are any new ones beyond the 10 identified here ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Assuming my conjecture is valid, then this Southern Leaguer group of 14 cards will never be found with a Brown
OLD MILL back.

Bastian
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King
Lentz
Miller
Orth
Rockenfeld
Seitz
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
Westlake
White (Houston)


Perhaps, some one on this forum will prove me wrong ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Edited: Ted fixed it.

[E93]

Interesting theory. Makes sense. They also apparently got pulled before being inserted in packs since all known were hand-cut. So somebody probably pulled a couple of sheets from final production.
JimB

[Abravefan11]

Leon's Mullaney with the multiple brands back includes a Brown Old Mill.

[Bridwell]

Well done, Ted.

This is further evidence that the Stark brown Old Mill card in the Goodwin auction (#98) is bogus. SGC really looks bad on this one. I see that Goodwin has pulled #98 from the auction. What was SGC thinking?

Ron R

Originally Posted by Bridwell

Well done, Ted.

This is further evidence that the Stark brown Old Mill card in the Goodwin auction (#98) is bogus. SGC really looks bad on this one. I see that Goodwin has pulled #98 from the auction. What was SGC thinking?

Ron R

Is there proof it is bogus?? Ted says this is a theory and not conclusive proof. I would be more worried about those OM overprints. Why would they use a red overprint on them. Does not make sense. But nothing really does when there is no proof it is valid or not.

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
"Ted says this is a theory and not conclusive proof."

Please read my complete explanation that I presented in the 1st and 2nd posts here, as it details why there
is a very high probability that Dolly Stark is not possible with a Brown OLD MILL back.


And, regarding the Brown OLD MILL factory #649 red overprint cards.....we just covered this subject a couple
of months ago. You posted in it, so go back and review this entire thread......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=brown+mill


TED Z

[cfc1909]

I am with Tim that Mullaney belongs on the list of confirmed brown Old Mill.

I would think as long as we have kept track of brown Hindu we have all the confirmed examples of the southern leaguers that exist. If another does turn up I would think it would not be one of the six Texas League players.


I think it is possible that when the Stark in question got submitted to SGC someone wrote brown on the submission and that is the reason it is on the flip. It is a mistake-it happens.

There have been mistakes where Heinie was mislabeled Honus and all that means is that it was a mistake-it is not a 2 million dollar card because it is labeled Honus. So the Stark is not a 4 or 5 thousand dollar card because it is labeled brown. It is a 75 dollar black Old Mill with a mislabeled flip. Unless the owner of the card can prove they paid brown Old Mill money for the card. That is the only way the Stark is any more than 75 bucks.

[tedzan]

JIM

I could have added Mullaney to the confirmed list. But, the Brown OLD MILL printing on it is inverted.
Is this the case with any of the 10 cards we have listed here ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

JIM

I could have added Mullaney to the confirmed list. But, the Brown OLD MILL printing on it is inverted.
Is this the case with any of the 10 cards we have listed here ?


TED Z

Leon can confirm this but I don't believe the Old Mill is inverted on this card. I think the back scan was inverted to better show the Young image.

[cfc1909]

inverted is upside down I think and I would still count it because it is brown-although that card has alot going on with all those backs printed in all directions-but I do think upside down counts

Batch.jpg

Batchb.jpg

[tedzan]

Hopefully Leon will chime in to set the record straight. But, it's my understanding that the OLD MILL printing
is inverted from the front picture.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted here's a link with images of the Mullaney in the holder. You can see from the flip that the Brown Old Mill was printed correctly in regards to the front.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=mullaney

[tedzan]

Thanks to Jim and Tim....there is an 11th Brown OLD MILL added to the confirmed list....Leon's Mullaney
card.
Leon's Mullaney card was originally printed with a Brown OLD MILL back (circa Summer of 1909). Subse-
quently (circa Fall/Winter of 1909), the printers used this card to test the new 350 Series backs. Of which
PIEDMONT 350 & EPDG were the very first to be printed. The Young image was also a test print (perhaps
since they carried Young over into the 350 Series).

If these printing errors were not so rare, it would not be surprising if most of the 23 remaining Southern
Leaguer's on the list would eventually be found with Brown OLD MILL backs.

Most likely, though, most of these cards were used as printer's testing scrap such as the Mullaney card.
And therefore, never left the American Litho. building.


TED Z

[tedzan]

UPDATED....April 24, 2010

Listed here are the 34 Southern Leaguers that possibly can be found with Brown OLD MILL backs.
To date, 11 of them that have been confirmed..........

Bay
Bernhard....................Brown OLD MILL
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster........................Brown OLD MILL
Fritz
Greminger...................Brown OLD MILL
Guiheen
Helm..........................Brown OLD MILL
Hickman
Hooker
Howard
Jordan
Kiernan......................Brown OLD MILL
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney....................Brown OLD MILL
Otey
Paige.........................Brown OLD MILL
Perdue
Persons
Reagan.......................Brown OLD MILL
Revelle.......................Brown OLD MILL
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Smith (Atlanta)............Brown OLD MILL
Thornton.....................Brown OLD MILL
Violat


Assuming my conjecture is valid, then this Southern Leaguer group of 14 cards will NOT be found
with a Brown OLD MILL back.

Bastian
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King
Lentz
Miller
Orth
Rockenfeld
Seitz
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
Westlake
White (Houston)


Perhaps, someone on this forum will prove me wrong regarding these 14 cards......and, post one
of these with a Brown OLD MILL back. In any event, let's see more of your Brown OLD MILL's ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

It's been reported that all of the known Brown OLD MILL cards are hand-cut.

Is this really true....that none of them are factory-cut ?


TED Z

[cfc1909]

ok-all the brown Old Mill cards I have seen are hand cut. Scott has told me for several years that he has a factory cut example. I have been after him for several years for a scan. I am thinking the Stark is the example he was talking about.
What is up with that card-has SGC made a descission on it?

About Leons Mullaney-Ted I think you may be on to something about testing the 350 backs and this card is an example of that, but please be cautious I think the Museum/Pat Chan are making these also. These multi strike examples have so much going on they are hard to say if they are legit or not.
I am pretty sure these are Pats new project and with very little to compare to these can be made and are very attractive to the 206 error collector. The key is they bring large coin at auction and there were some examples avalible for sale on the Museum.

Bottom line is know what you are spending your money on and try to find out where the card has been for the last 30 years. I am pretty sure Leon did his homework before spending what he did on that card.

[tedzan]

Well, they can try to fake cards that resemble Leon's Mullaney card. But, they will not succeed. This Mullaney card is uniquely
significant. The combination of backs printed on it confirm a timeline that Scot Reader and I had theorized from our research.
I date the printing of this card to the Winter of 1909, when American Litho. started printing their 350 series cards. The initial
press runs were Piedmont 350 and El Principe de Gales. This we know from our study on the "Elite Nine" cards 4 years ago (a
Search for the Elite Nine thread tells you the story).

My point here is that whoever attempts to fake multiple backs on a given T206 card will not know the relative sequence. That
will be the tell-tale clue that such a card is not an original T206. So, have no fear ole buddy....Sherlock Holmes is ever vigilant.


TED Z

[ullmandds]

if he or she does their homework...they might know the sequence!

[tedzan]

Re-fronted (or re-backed) Cobb's, Matty's, Doyle error cards, etc. were identified as fakes, since the "card doctors" did
not know what series these T206 subjects belonged in. So, what makes you think these culprits will be knowledgeable
on something as complex as timelines of when the various backs were printed ?

Furthermore, the relativity of the various backs with respect to each other ?

TED Z

[ullmandds]

Ted...no disrespect of course...but...if I were a card md...I'd frequent this site every day. And you have to assume these guys become more sophisticated as time goes by...with each passing failure...with all of the info available on the internet and all.

[cfc1909]

Ted

Chan wont make a silly mistake next time like balck and red and he will succeed-there are too many buyers for his creations that don't have your education.


After Chan got caught he came on the forum as Scott B. and posted in his own thread asking about printing this stuff in his basement. You can bet your house he is reading this.

You hit the nail on the head Pete.

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
" but...if I were a card md...I'd frequent this site every day. And you have to assume these guys become more
sophisticated as time goes by...with each passing failure...with all of the info available on the internet and all."

Perhaps so......however, no matter how informative Scot Reader, Lew Lipset, Brian Weisner, Art Martineau, Jim
Rivera, John Wonka, Dan Koochin, I and others are regarding The Monster, there are subtle levels of complexity
that will elude the "card MD's". And, that will be their "achilles heal". So, it behooves us to be vigilant.

Should another multiple back printed card surface, such as Leon's Mullaney, you can bet your booty that it'll be
very closely scrutinized.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Hey guys......to quote the lyrics of Peggy Lee's 1969 torch song...." Is That All There Is ? "

We have a possible 34 cards with this very scarce back, and so far we have discovered only 1/3 rd of them.

Really....is that all there is ?

Yes, I know....I have repeatedly said that we live in a "1/3 rd" world; but, not here. There must be more of
these miss-printed backs out there ?


Thanks for your responses,

TED Z

[Abravefan11]

If all of the brown Old Mills that we know about are hand cut, and considering Leon's Mullaney, it's evident these cards were scrap that were saved before going into the trash. Maybe all 34 were not printed, or even more likely, all 34 didn't make it out the factory.

[tedzan]

Regarding your........"Maybe all 34 were not printed, or even more likely, all 34 didn't make it out the factory."

I would favor the latter part of that statement.

As, I have complete (and partial) UNCUT sheets of late 1940's & 1950's Bowman BB and FB. Also, 1950's Fleer
and Topps sheets.....and, in most cases these sheets were carried out from the printing firm by employees.

Therefore, all 34 of these T206's were printed on one sheet. So, I'm confident that more of these Brown OLD
MILL cards will eventually be found.


TED Z