Ghost Image

[Casey2296]

Appropriate question for tonight...
Can someone help me understand the process of how a ghost image comes about. For example this E94 Speaker, it looks like a bleed through to me but i don't know much about the printing process so I'm looking for a little Net54 member education.
Thank you in advance.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Hi Phil,

I believe that is a wet sheet transfer. It happens when one sheet is placed on top of another sheet that is still wet. The ink transfers to the back of the card that is laying on top of it.

[steve B]

It could be a wet sheet transfer, but it's very solid if it is.
(The technical term is an "offset transfer" but wet sheet transfer is close enough and has become the standard term)

More likely it's an impression cylinder transfer. Those are usually very strong and detailed.

The plate or stone is dampened, inked, then prints to an offset blanket, a rubber sheet. That then prints to the paper or cardboard. To give it something to press against, there's a smooth metal cylinder - The impression cylinder.
If a sheet doesn't feed, the blanket prints to the impression cylinder. Then when the next sheet feeds, both the blanket and the impression cylinder print to the cardboard, except the impression cylinder prints reversed on the opposite side.

[Casey2296]

Ah, that would make sense. It's a very precise print for 1911 tech, I would assume if it's a wet transfer there would be more smudging. So in your example I would assume the color layer in this example would be laid down first then the black layer.

[oldeboo]

For the visual people, like me, I believe this image from online shows what Steve is explaining. It makes a lot more sense when I can see it. It also helps to understand the sequence of how some of these oddballs occurred and the purpose of each process. WST is from the stacking of paper AFTER printing, ICT is when the ink gets transferred to the impression cylinder then to the paper DURING printing. These differences explain the strength of transfer.

[Casey2296]

So in this example did the blue ink gets transferred from the blanket cylinder to the impression cylinder by mistake? For example: if a sheet didn't get fed but the ink rollers kept rolling therefore transferring inK to the impression cylinder and resulting in a ghost image on the next sheet that went through?

[oldeboo]

Yes, I believe that is what Steve is saying, not to speak for him as he knows more about this. However, I believe what you explained is dead on. I would suspect the first sheet that went through after an accidental transfer to the impression cylinder would be very dark, then maybe for a few sheets after that it would get weaker in color while still being very sharp and defined until the impression cylinder becomes clean as it should be.

Here is a basic video(with some modern twists) that gives a rough idea of the cylinder process in less than 2 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMU-zB8Sro

[Jobu]

I agree with Steve B - I think this is 100% a cylinder transfer. I have three: Jennings, Moser, and McArdle. McArdle is similar to yours as a background color transfer. And for comparison is my T206 Leifield - a nice wet sheet transfer where you can see lots of colors, which is a bit unusual, but you can also see that they aren't nearly as sharp as the others. And this is a pretty strong WST, many are weaker.

[steve B]

The colors were probably done one at a time.*
The diagram Treyboo posted is a great one, it covers the main idea, while not confusing with the extra rollers above that.
T206s were printed on a slightly different press, a flatbed offset press, where the "plate" was an actual stone, a large flat piece of limestone.
But that diagram still works for the concept. (the flatbed offset presses are a bit crazy mechanically. )

Typically, you'd want to do the lightest color first, darkest last.

In modern stuff where it's just yellow, blue, red, black they usually get done in that order.
T206s were a minimum of six colors, and usually more like 8 sometimes more.
Logically, they should be done the same way, and they usually are. Light blue is under dark blue, pink under bright red etc.
But there is a group that is different, the ones showing only yellow and brown.
I suspect brown was done just after yellow to give a nice solid color to compare registration of the later colors to since yellow can be hard to see.

* Now we get to the neat conjecture portion !
Around 1910, some of the first multi color lithographic presses were being made. (Picture two presses connected, and the paper goes directly from one to the other without any handling etc. ) One of the pioneering companies appears to have been a favorite supplier to ALC.
There are the yellow/browns, and many of the missing color cards aren't just missing one color. That leads me to believe that at least parts of some runs were done on a two color press.

[Pat R]

Here's a card with a different type of cylinder transfer where a foreign
object got stuck in the impression cylinder and created an odd mark on
the front and an indentation on the back.

Willett Front 800 dpi.jpg

Willett - Copy.jpg

Steve B explains it in this thread and there's a link in that thread where Chris B
was the first to discover that it was a reoccurring print flaw
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=198822

[oldeboo]

Very interesting on the Willett card. In the parallel universe of coins, that is essentially referred to as a struck through error. Now I have to find a Willett!

[Jobu]

Here is the great Steve B talking about the Willett error:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=198822

[Casey2296]

This forum never ceases to amaze me.

[steve B]

Thanks guys. On so many levels. Not least of them that I never saved a copy of that figuring I wouldn't forget something so odd.

But I did... And tried to find the thread and couldn't. So I started wondering if it was a thread, a PM, and email..

Just saved a copy with a non-cryptic file name.

[Leon]

I love this kind of card.

[BabyRuth]

W517 #1 ghost