T220 Silver - Uncut Edition

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

It's actually kind of sad I remember doing some research on it and couldn't find anything on a Robert Williamson in any Tobacco sets. I thought maybe it was a card that looked like her brother and she was hoping it was him maybe R.P. Williams

If she hasn’t seen him in 35 years in 1911, it must be someone older than most of the athletes in T218, which is really a collection of the top track athletes in America in 1908. Williams was a talented sprinter of the 1910 period. Williams is never referred to as Williamson as far as I’ve ever seen. He also never is referred to by his first name though, it’s always R.P, and he is one of the more obscure runners in the issue. I don’t think this is our man, but I could be wrong.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

If she hasn’t seen him in 35 years in 1911, it must be someone older than most of the athletes in T218, which is really a collection of the top track athletes in America in 1908. Williams was a talented sprinter of the 1910 period. Williams is never referred to as Williamson as far as I’ve ever seen. He also never is referred to by his first name though, it’s always R.P, and he is one of the more obscure runners in the issue. I don’t think this is our man, but I could be wrong.

Makes sense to me Greg, I don't know the set so I was only going off the checklist I thought because she said it was an older photo maybe ther were some athletes that were older when the cards came out like the T220 Donovan.

[G1911]

Posted in the pick up thread, but this belongs here for the record. McAuliffe probably comes from the same period of pre-production as the sheets. Whether it was machine cut or handcut originally is impossible to tell for sure at this remove and with so much edge damage (I don't think the originally cut edges are still present on the card anymore), but it was probably handcut.

It matches perfectly the cards on the sheet, blank back, missing the layer of silver. This card presumably does not come from the same source as the sheets, as it's been in the hobby for years before them and has seen a lot more abuse. If it was from these sheets, they can't have been together in many decades.

The most interesting part to me is the color. Even with all the damage and abuse, it is a much bolder printing than the issued cards, which are usually pretty bolded already. I mentioned this earlier about the sheets, but wasn't sure if it was because 1) they'd been presumably stored somewhere dark for a century and hadn't been exposed much and all cards originally were brighter or 2) the proofs had more color to them. Seems that it is definitely 2.

[G1911]

So the rest of them are out, though I'm late to the party. Apparently the buyer of the Moore and Beecher's didn't pay or was a shill bidder (the utter incompetency of the seller would indicate they couldn't figure out how to shill bid...).

They were sold on May 5 through Weiss, and poorly listed. This is a terrible choice by the seller, not the kind of place for a niche item like these. The people who saw them got steals.

The Jas. J. Corbett went for $400, one fourth the value of the last sale of a single Corbett card. The Dempsey sold for the most of them all at $500. The rest did $200-$340.

In addition to those that had appeared before, Erne, Choynski, Randall, Jas J. Corbett and Coburn appeared.

I bought from one of the winners who was kind enough to flip them my way and now have 20 of the 23 in hand. Ryan and McAuliffe apparently were not in the find at all. One of these 2 cards is almost certainly the bottom left corner panel. Interesting that the only stand-alone proof card known is a McAuliffe. Unlikely it came from the same original source though, as that one was sold competently.

I've gone over the images and am building another work-up of which cards go where. With 20 in hand and Choynski being easy to place, we might be able to do most of it now. I'm going to take the 5 I got in hand today and compare them to what I have worked up before posting an image. Hopefully we can learn something from the final arrangement.

Perhaps the most impressive part of this whole discovery is the absolute stupidity of the seller, an antiques dealer they were consigned too. He listed them as old reprints with no helpful keywords, didn't even ID the set, and sold the best one and the bulk of them for almost nothing. He pulled Carney, Mccoy and Dempsey from eBay after it finally became apparent that he had something. The Dempsey was over $2,300 with like 4 days left on eBay when he yanked it. Then he had it poorly listed in an auction house that this is not a fit for at all, and sold it for $500. He got absolutely robbed on the Corbett, even after he must have figured out he got robbed on the Donovan. I don't see a problem with finding a good deal, but this amount of stacking terrible choices by a professional dealer who should no so much better makes me feel bad for whoever it was that originally found these and brought them to him. They are boxing, it's not like finding a Wagner or retirement, but they lost thousands and thousands of dollars by the sheer incompetence of the professional they brought them too. Just 5 minutes of research and a drop of common sense would have prevented that.

[Exhibitman]

Dealer? Yes. Professional? Not so much, apparently.

These sorts of obscure item screw-ups are not uncommon and are at times made by big-time dealers who should know better. One that comes to mind was an utterly stupid set of BINs on 1961 Bell Brand Lakers cards by a dealer big enough to know better. I know several basketball collectors who would have paid 10X his BINs without even blinking. I asked him WTF and his excuse was that he didn't know how to price them. If so, run a damn auction.

But I digress...

Looking forward to seeing the composite. But don't forget that they might be more than one sheet, if the pieces do not seem to work out as a single sheet.

[G1911]

I've got my layout, first though, here are the 3 pieces of extant evidence I do not have in hand and do not posses. Choyinski at least is very obvious to place. Randall was certainly placed on the sheet horizontally, so that he appears sideways to the rest of the cards.

[G1911]

It's definitely easier to piece together with stuff in hand. I redid this all with the aid of another collector, and a former-card collector with better eyes than I have for identifying fits and small marks on the blank reverses (thanks Dad!).

Many of the backs have small marks, stains and abrasions that flow together. Many of the cards have damage (usually small) crossing form one panel into another. This sheet was clearly not cut up right away, almost all of the damage to the panels certainly happened before it was separated. I am starting with the 20 I have in hand and can examine closely.

Working from right to left, because that's how the evidence flows best as a narrative, though I didn't construct them all in order. Columns and rows are numbered by the panel, there are actually 10 rows and 20 columns of course.

COLUMN 5
1) Jordan is obviously the top right corner.

2) Beneath him is Pal Moore, a crease and other indicators obviously connect them.

3) Same as 2, Gans is obviously below Moore, 100%, due to damage between the bottom of Moore and top of Gans

4) Dempsey I have placed due to some marks on the back and the fit of the cut.

COLUMN 4
Column 4 is cut slightly different from the rest, the cutter appears to have cut horizontal instead of vertical first against column 3.

1) Burke goes next to Jordan, I had this wrong in my initial mockup. the cut, the lining up of the frames, a mark on the back, and the water stain or whatever it is streaking across the top fit perfect. Confident here now.

2-3) Young Corbett and Tug Wilson are placed by their cuts, and thus less precise. They are unfortunately very clean panels. They fit against all 4 of their bordering panels correctly, and nothing else fits in these slots. ~85% confident on these.

4) McCoy fits above Carney, and there are some back markers that strongly indicate its placing here.

5) Carney fits perfect below McCoy and has the back marker. The creasing at bottom and other wear marks place it to the right of McGovern.

COLUMN 3
1) Erne adjacent to Burke, the damage at the top and the cut flow perfecly between the two.

2-3) Driscoll and Beecher's panels are, like column 4, placed by their cuts. They fit perfectly in these spots against all 4 border panels and do not fit in any other slot. I would again consider this less than perfectly ideal, but solid enough to state that they go here.

4) Goldman fits here based on some small back markers connecting it to the card at left and bottom of him.

5) McGovern, from the back marks, and it's position in row 5. 100%

COLUMN 2
1) I at first thought Frayne might be the upper left corner, but there is a small red mark at top connecting to Erne, and the cut is absolutely perfect between the two. That the panels were not handled much and did not get much wear after cutting makes this a lot easier.

2) Jackson is placed by his cut against the 3 for sure border panels

3) Lavigne fits above Donovan, due a back mark and the cutting

4) Donovan is placed by small back marks connecting it with Lavigne and Goldman

5) Edwards is cut perfect against Donovan. The bottom damage makes it plain and evident he is to the left of McGovern.

COLUMN 1
Coburn is placed by cut against Lavigne, but primarily the very clear and obvious huge rip that places him to the left of Lavigne.

[G1911]

This leaves us 3 cards to place and 2 that do not exist (McAuliffe and Ryan).

1) Choyinski clearly is below Coburn, and below and to the left of Lavigne. That rip running from the bottom left panel (non-existent now) ran up through Choyinski, through Coburn's corner, and into Lavigne's panel. Choyinski has the white border at left, telling us some of the far left column's cards had the white trimmed off and some did not.

2) The bottom left panel has to be heavily damaged, as the Choyinski makes clear. It clearly is not Randall or Jas. J. Corbett in this slot.

3) Nothing proves conclusively Randall or Corbett cannot be the bottom right corner card. There cuts do not seem to quite match the Carney, using the Carney in hand and the highest resolution photos I have of Randall and J Corbett.

4) However, the right of Randall's panel (the top of the image) seems to fit into the rather poor cut on the left edge of Peter Jackson. Out of the 3 options, I think this one clearly fits the best here.

5) Same with Corbett, it ain't solid when I'm comparing a scan of a fairly clean sheet with an edge I have in hand. He seems to fit well with the dimensions of the Randall being below him, and against the less than perfect cut of Frayne. He doesn't seem to fit quite right with Jackson, or Randall above him, or with Carney to his left.

So I'm not 100% on Corbett and Randall, but I'm pretty sure. I hope the owners do not cut them up and destroy any chance we will one day be certain.

That leaves us the two bottom corners as Ryan and McAuliffe, but of course there is no way to deduce which was which. Unless we get a miscut showing a card from print rows 8 or 9 of Choyinski/Dempsey/Ryan/McAuliffe angled the right way, we will presumably never know.

I do have a single 'proof' card of McAuliffe, heavily worn. It is the only single proof card known to the hobby. Whether it came from this proof sheet or a partially completed sheet during production is a mystery.

I have added Choyinski and Randall visually with cards, Corbett with my iPad (I don't have 8 Jas. J. Corbett's to array ), and Ryan/McAuliffe adjacent in their mystery spots.