Will you get vaccinated against COVID once it's available?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I answered your question, maybe you'll answer mine. Why would someone who's been fully vaccinated and believes their vaccination protects them be concerned with those who are unvaccinated?

That's an easy one to answer from a science perspective. The more people who are unvaccinated the more time we give the virus to mutate. The more time we give it to mutate the more likely it mutates into a variant against which the current vaccines don't work. THAT'S why herd immunity is such a big deal. Not as much for immediate health but to keep this thing from lingering and flaring up continuously for years.

[Tripredacus]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

That's an easy one to answer from a science perspective. The more people who are unvaccinated the more time we give the virus to mutate. The more time we give it to mutate the more likely it mutates into a variant against which the current vaccines don't work. THAT'S why herd immunity is such a big deal. Not as much for immediate health but to keep this thing from lingering and flaring up continuously for years.

The argument you post is missing in important detail, especially in regards to herd immunity. Herd Immunity is not caused by vaccination alone, but natural immunity plus vaccination for those who do not have that natural immunity. It is incorrect presumption that a virus cannot mutate due to vaccination, it can mutate either way. In the classical sense, a vaccinated person often becomes a carrier.

Now the current vaccines used against covid in North America are not the classical type, and they are not designed to provide immunity. They are designed to provide a decreased percentage for the spike protein to bind to ACE2, thus lowering viral load in which the viral side effects are lower or not noticed by the person. Even in this design, they still say that a person who is vaccinated can still become infected and still spread the virus, albeit at a lower rate.

The pressure on the virus due to the operating environment is what causes a virus to mutate. The limiting factors are the inability to spread, be it from a vaccinated person's increased resilience to the spike protein, or a recovered person with immunity. In this case, a virus may mutate to overcome those limitations. Now there are various outcomes of our current environment, as we have 4 (or 5) groups of people:
1. Those who have not had an infection but are not immune
2. Those who have recovered from an infection and have immunological memory (the body recognises the virus as well as spike protein)
3. Those who are vaccinated but have not had a previous infection.
4. Those who have recovered, have the immunological memory, and are vaccinated.
5. Those who are naturally immune

(I think this is all of the possibilities at this time, if I forgot one let me know)

So from the above, we can potentially ignore #5 because there is no way to know how a mutant would effect them. For the others the situation can vary depending on the reason why the mutant came into being.

If a mutation occurs where a portion of the virus changes but it still binds to ACE2, then it will effect group 3 more than 2 or 4 because group 3 does not have immunological memory of the virus, only the spike protein

If a mutation occurs where the spike protein changes OR binds to something other than ACE2 but the virus itself largely remains unchanged, then it will effect group 3 more than group 2 and 4, because group 2 would have the memory of the virus.

The moral of the story is that vaccines do not (and have not) ever stopped a virus from mutating. Now there is some tedpidation in the literature I have read that vaccinating such large portions of a population gives the population too common of an infection vector. Rather than longer periods in the past of natural infection and a vaccine coming much later tends to give a varied type of immunity in a population, which creates a more difficult environment for a virus to adapt to.

This virus is new, and the methods that governments have been using to contain it are new. Whether you get the vaccine or not, we won't know how it plays out until it plays out. And even then, it isn't like we can know if we did it right, because we can't have a do-over to try something else.

[G1911]

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[Republicaninmass]

I'll take it, trumps any ongoing negotiations

For the card that is

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?

Excellent, well written post.

[irv]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Excellent, well written post.

X2!

Excellent post, G1911.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?

Best post within this thread by far....

ESPECIALLY points three and four.

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?

I think we can all agree that sound decisions should be based on sound input in the decision making process. Your reasoning for not getting the vaccine, while well written, is not based on complete input. There is one major point which you omit. I’ll go over it plus another questionable point.

“(T)he reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease.” That is one of the reasons. The other reason is for a person to minimize his/her potential of passing the virus to another person. At 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency, you can get Covid-19 and survive. Great! But what about the people you infect? Can you say the same about them?

“Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air?” Yes, what of it? Do you expect a mask to completely absorb your breath so that none of your warm, moist breath condenses when it hits the cold air? Sorry, but that’s a rather specious reason to argue against wearing a mask. The reason for the mask is to reduce the distance that a person's breath will travel, thus minimizing the potential of a person infecting someone else. Not 100% perfect, but minimizing the distance the virus may travel from an infected person is important. At 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency, you can get Covid-19 and survive. Great! But what if you get infected and don’t know it? Isn’t wearing a mask a small price to pay if it can help keep you from infecting someone else?

“States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without.” Do you have a source for this claim? This reference completely refutes that claim.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0249891

Lastly, you say you have a 99.8% chance of surviving getting Covid-19. Let me point out, that your chances of surviving the covid shot are greater than that. But, "what are the long-term effects the vaccine will have on me?", you ask. Right now, the prevailing thought is that it shouldn't have any. And, honestly, this thought may change. Do you know what the long-term effects of getting Covid-19 are? Is the prevailing thought that there is no chance of long-term effects of getting Covid-19?

[G1911]

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[packs]

Pretty draconian view of society and your place in it. Would you slow down for someone crossing a street after the light turns green? Or did they make a decision they'll have to live with now?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Pretty draconian view of society and your place in it. Would you slow down for someone crossing a street after the light turns green? Or did they make a decision they'll have to live with now?

To be expected, I am afraid, of younger people. All about themselves.

[G1911]

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[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To be expected, I am afraid, of younger people. All about themselves.

So if we don't want the vaccine, we should just take it anyway? For the sake of others?

[G1911]

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[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes, me not taking an experimental drug means I am likely to commit homicide. This kind of bullshit is exactly why I have 0 interest in participating in this madness. This is the dumbest thing I have read this week.

I was just distilling what you said to it's fundamentals, which is you make your decision for you and that's how it is for everyone else.