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  #1  
Old 02-09-2009, 06:21 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: JimCrandell

I am not setting the world on fire with my upgrade percentage at PSA. In my most recent 300-card submission returned today I got just 14 upgrades. Don't know whether any were upgraded to 9 or if they are all 8.5s.

This broke down as follows(all were 8s unless noted):

1941 Play Ball--3 of 64
1957 Topps Basketball--3 of 80
1961 Fleer Basketball--6 of 61(includes Russell and Robertson RC)
Misc Basketball--1 of 3(includes Jordan RC)
1960s Football Stars--(0 for 17)
1960s Baseball(with 15 or so pre and post war 7s)1 for 75!-yikes

Disappointing overall but 300 more to be delivered in Philly on Friday.

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  #2  
Old 02-09-2009, 06:30 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: jay wolt

Jim, just a headsup, the Philly Show is not next week
Its March 13 to 15 at Valley Forge Convention Center

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  #3  
Old 02-09-2009, 06:45 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: JimCrandell

jay,

I knew that but I am going down to Princeton this weekend and I was confused--anyway, thanks.

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  #4  
Old 02-09-2009, 07:39 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: leon

Hey Jim
How many came back lower?

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  #5  
Old 02-09-2009, 07:54 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: Jantz


When I read Jim's post, the numbers began flying through my head. Then it hit me....

What if the 14 upgrades were all common cards?

I got my fingers crossed for you Jim.

Good Luck,

Jantz

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  #6  
Old 02-10-2009, 03:01 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon--you know the answer to that happy.gif

Jantz--well the Oscar and Jordan rookies is hardly are hardly commons nor is the Russell. However the Play Ball and 57 Topps upgrades are.

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  #7  
Old 02-10-2009, 04:25 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- it's been said a hundred times before, but allow me to be the 101st:

Mathematical probability suggests that in a fairly large sampling of 300 cards, if 14 of them were undergraded, then it is likely that 14 others were overgraded. Nothing personal, but I don't like this.

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  #8  
Old 02-10-2009, 05:24 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: marshall barkman

Generally speaking Jim what i have noticed is that PSA has been bumping between 5 to 10 percent on re-subs. I sent in 48 cards and 4 got bumped. The thing that is most noticeable though is that the cards that get bumped are never the rare cards on the pop report or hall of famers. I hope your situation is different.

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  #9  
Old 02-10-2009, 05:24 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: Dave F


Barry your right, fact is a fact...just as many are overgraded as undergraded if not more.


Jim-

This really is nothing more than a smoke cover. Wool over the eyes and I don't care for it either.

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  #10  
Old 02-10-2009, 05:42 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: ebrehm

I don't see the problem. The cards now getting half-grade bumps from PSA weren't necessarily "undergraded" in the first place, because the half grades weren't even available when they were originally graded.

The new half-grades aside, people send in a card for review if they feel it might be undergraded -- say it got a 7 but they think it should be an 8. Or if they have a card that they think is overgraded, they may try to get compensated for that. If they are happy with the grade assigned to a card, they don't send it in just for the heck of it, to see what it might get, higher or lower, the second time around. So for PSA to increase grades on cards by a whole grade that they agree are undergraded (i.e., admitting a mistake the first time around), and otherwise return them to the owner, makes sense.

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  #11  
Old 02-10-2009, 05:51 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: leon

It makes sense, just not common sense. The whole idea is to make money. There is nothing wrong with that but lets call it what it is. And yes, this horse has been beaten (I was just giving a friendly jab, as Jim knew.) But every time I see this farce called "reviewing for higher grades" it just doesn't sit right. I have NOTHING against grading in general....or collectors who collect high grade. I consider all collectors friends and compadre's. I don't even blame PSA for doing it. Another great marketing idea. Kudo's to Joe for that. ....take care

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  #12  
Old 02-10-2009, 05:57 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Leon wholeheartedly. What this is is a gift to their best customers. I would rather they gave out 10% discounts or PSA tote bags for gifts, but they have chosen to give out risk free bumps instead.

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  #13  
Old 02-10-2009, 06:16 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: Scott Fandango

you said "Mathematical probability suggests that in a fairly large sampling of 300 cards, if 14 of them were undergraded, then it is likely that 14 others were overgraded. Nothing personal, but I don't like this"



one thing i think you are overlooking....



when PSA bumps a card, they are not admitting they were wrong, they are saying ths card now belongs in the new category ( a category to distinguish excellent examples within a specific grade.... if they bumped from a 8 to a 9,they would be saying they made a mistake, but a bump from 8 to 8.5, there is no admission of wrond grading the first time around...

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  #14  
Old 02-10-2009, 06:22 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: Dave F



But at the same time....while PSA now admits some of the 8's should be 8.5's that weren't available in that grade at one time, couldnt' the same consensus be that some of those 8's were borderline to begin with and would have received 7.5's?

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  #15  
Old 02-10-2009, 06:23 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: rand

Why did PSA resist on the 1/2 grade system for so long? all their competitors used them from the get go.

i will go out on a limb here. in reference to Marshall's remark about the 10% average upgrade.. along with Jim blindly sending in 300 cards at a time... i think what the difference here is Jim doesnt have the time to re-examine his cards to determine in they are worth sending in (a real chance of upgrade) since he is not being charged for them. whereas marshall is reviewing his cards (to his opinion) that the have a very good chance of a bump.

this is not sarcastic, but if Jim had to pay $10 per card for a reviewal he would be looking them over, and not sending 20,000 cards in for the heck of it.

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  #16  
Old 02-10-2009, 06:30 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: marshall barkman

In my opinion there is way to much latitude when it comes to grading. If you talk to anyone that understands grading they will immediatly throw out the old human error mistake. Let's say a card looks overgraded then most dealers will say well it probably came from someone originally who submits alot of cards so PSA threw them in a bone, if the same card is undergraded then the excuse is well the grader had a off day or it must have been submitted by a nobody.

There should be more strict guidelines when it comes to grading. I have a few cards in 7 holders that if i cracked them out would not get 6's if i re-submitted them. The half point to me just looks ridiculous on the holder. It is like are coin companies going to go to MS-63.5 or VG.5 and the answer is no. The whole notion of .5 is absurd and it really does not benefit the hobby.

All the .5 does is make people buy cards hoping to get them bumped because it is .5 away from being the next grade.

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  #17  
Old 02-10-2009, 06:38 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: barrysloate

Scott- this is my point:

What if PSA examines an 8, and they feel it really should be a 7.5, that the corners are a little too soft for such a high grade; or they remeasure a card and notice that it is a millimeter short and they missed it the first time around. Why can't they rectify that error? And it seems to me for every undergraded card, there is an equal likelihood of an overgraded one. I just have a problem with a no risk/all reward system.

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  #18  
Old 02-10-2009, 06:47 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: marshall barkman

Rand.....you are 100% correct. I measure each card and also loop it to figure out if the card merits consideration for a bump. Sometimes a 8 can have perfect centering and razor corners and have a look to it that screams 9 but after carefully looping the card you notice a small chip in the back border that is hard to catch with the way the light hits the holder. If Jim is just sending in 20,000 cards blindly without reviewing them then that is ridiculous. It does not suprise me however because he wrote on the message board on a different post that he was interested in some of my Beauties in PSA 8 holders and possibly ending a few cards i was auctioning off on E-bay if i gave him a "good deal", not only did he not respond to two e-mails but he also has not won any of the cards that i have listed on E-bay. My thought is the guy is to cool for school and wants favorable treatment across the board. I have however sold 4 PSA 8's for over 300 dollars a piece to PSA set registry folks offline for fair market value who have e-mailed in regards to the same cards. If you want favors then tip the bellhop or cab driver.

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  #19  
Old 02-10-2009, 06:52 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: jay wolt

Barry - so if a customer sends in cards for review since he thinks

his cards have a chance for upgrades and pays the per card fee.

He would be sizzling if some came back at a lower grade. And if so

would PSA now pay the customer $$$ since the card in essence has been

devalued?

PSA did this (Obviously) to generate income, so to pay Jim as example

for 15 cards they downgraded would defeat the purpose of implementing

this plan. They did this to make money, not lose money.

We all know this going in.

EDITED to add: I hope in situations where egregious errors occured
that PSA would buy the card back. Like noticing a card w/ a numerical
grade was altered.

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  #20  
Old 02-10-2009, 07:02 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- that's exactly my point. It's good marketing for PSA, and it gives high volume submitters such as Jim some bonus points at no risk. But it's not an objective evaluation.

Next time I want to buy some stocks I am going to tell my broker to please only pick out the ones that go up, as I am not interested in the ones that go down.

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  #21  
Old 02-10-2009, 07:07 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: jay wolt

Barry I suppose your stock broker may offer you nothing.

Same w/ PSA there is no quarantee or % that get bumped.

I know of several people that submitted some cards for review

with no bumps.

If Jim just submitted 100 of the cards that didn't garner a bump

then he would be at 0%



I'm just stating why all this was done. I am not a proponent of

PSA's 9th inning switch to 1/2 points, and have never submitted a

card for review under this plan.

Ironically I have sent in cards for review in the past when I thought

cards were undergraded and some were bumped. So its hardly a new concept.


EDITED for spelling error

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  #22  
Old 02-10-2009, 07:12 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: barrysloate

I'm actually okay with the half point bumps, assuming it's even possible to distinguish a 7 from a 7.5 or an 8 with even a modicum of consistency. But we always have threads about overgraded cards, and if the system is fair then those errors need to be corrected too.

And since we both agree very few collectors would dare resubmit under that circumstance, then we have both come to the conclusion that these half grades were implemented to increase PSA's bottom line.

Nothing at all wrong with increasing revenue, but turning a blind eye to past errors isn't a great system.

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  #23  
Old 02-10-2009, 08:00 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: David Atkatz

<<If Jim just submitted 100 of the cards that didn't garner a bump then he would be at 0%>>

Not necessarily.

I'm sure that PSA will find at least one bump in any large (say >100) group of cards that Crandell sends in.

It's not good business to completely disappoint your best customer.

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  #24  
Old 02-10-2009, 08:20 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: rand

i agree 100% with marshall about agreeing with me 100%

personally, i think its to JIM's disadvantage the joe orlando deal... he is sending in a ton of cards... with the majority not deserving a bump, so the graders see a mountain of cards and breeze through them just as fast as they did the first time around. they know Jim is NOT going to question any of the non bumps because he doesnt know in the first place if the card was better.

if Jim, actually appreciated what Joe was offering, then Jim would carefully go through the cards and resubmit the ones that actually have a chance. perhaps his percentage would go up and not waste the graders time for free.

its just a thought.

3 years ago i had concerns SGC was undergrading my cards, after a great chat with Sean he allowed me to send cards in for review free of charge. I really appreciated this, so i was very careful to only send back cards i thought were legit, i didnt want to waste anybody's time. i was fortunate to get 50% back as higher grades, they also circled the problem areas on the ones that didnt make the cut... i learned what to look for. it was a great experience.

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  #25  
Old 02-10-2009, 08:29 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: Steve

" What this is is a gift to their best customers."


Barry anyone can send in a card for review, it is hardly
a gift to their best customers.


Steve

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  #26  
Old 02-10-2009, 08:31 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: sagard

"3 years ago i had concerns SGC was undergrading my cards"

Shocking. happy.gif

Nice to see you had success when you called them out on it.

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  #27  
Old 02-10-2009, 08:53 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- the gift is the no risk bump. True, anyone can send in.

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  #28  
Old 02-10-2009, 09:07 AM
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Posted By: Jason

Well in Jim's case I'm sure he has a good idea and probably doesn't have too many soft 8's in his collection anyways.

However, for the rest of us. A system that only bumps cards and doesn't downgrade is just a cash grab and it cheapens the brand in my eyes. Of course, I'm probably just preaching to the choir.

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  #29  
Old 02-10-2009, 09:38 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: MikePugeda

Steve and Barry,

I'm pretty sure I remember Jim C. alluding to the fact that these reviews were being done for free or at the least very minimal cost. Perhaps that could be considered a gift as well, in addition to the risk free bumps. I'm sure the average PSA customer is not offered gratis or reduced fees when they send their cards in for re-eval.

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  #30  
Old 02-10-2009, 10:29 AM
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Posted By: Steve

Anyone can get a discount.

As long as you meet a certain criteria (send in enough cards)

anyone can and will get a discount. Average guys on the boards

right now chipped in together and received a deal. I believe they sent in

500 cards all together and got a discount.



Barry Getting a deserved bump is not a gift.


PSA has many faults but many here seem to go over board.


For the record I'm not sending in any cards for review.

No need, they are what they are. Going forward I have no problem

with my cards being graded under the .5 system.

Steve

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  #31  
Old 02-10-2009, 10:40 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: MikePugeda

Steve,

Not sure if you were referring to my comment or not, but I was not implying that there was anything wrong with giving anyone a discount. If I have a patient that wants to do a $10,000 implant case and they are a cash payer, I sure as hell would give them some type of discount. It's good business for PSA to cater to their high volume customers.

I understand PSA is a business and this was a great idea to generate more income, but I think that some people have a problem with the fact that a card can be bumped up, but can't be bumped down. I have never sent a card in for grading (although have purchased graded cards), but don't you think that this policy is, in the least, slightly flawed?

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  #32  
Old 02-10-2009, 10:50 AM
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Posted By: Steve

All policies are slightly flawed.

Of course this is a money maker regardless
if that was the intent or not. They are after all
grading a card for the 2nd time. That is why I am not doing it.
If I have a card that I feel would bump say from an 8 to a 9
I'll just price it accordingly. I don't need PSA to give its
opinion again. If I feel it is an 8.5 in an 8.00 holder
it will sell for more then one that is a 7.75 in an 8.00
holder. I'll start the auction higher. This really is not rocket science.

I was trying to say that anyone can get a discount, not just
the Davs of the world.


Steve

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  #33  
Old 02-10-2009, 11:38 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: JimB

"If I have a card that I feel would bump say from an 8 to a 9
I'll just price it accordingly. I don't need PSA to give its
opinion again."

You can price it however you want, but my guess is you will have a hard time finding someone willing to pay a 9 price for a card in an 8 holder.
JimB

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  #34  
Old 02-10-2009, 11:44 AM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: rand

i made a statement about psa sifting through jim's 300 cards like they did the first time around. does anybody really think jim's cards are getting undivided attention to really find the better cards?

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  #35  
Old 02-10-2009, 01:45 PM
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Posted By: scott fandango

you said "3 years ago i had concerns SGC was undergrading my cards, after a great chat with Sean he allowed me to send cards in for review free of charge. I really appreciated this, so i was very careful to only send back cards i thought were legit, i didnt want to waste anybody's time. i was fortunate to get 50% back as higher grades, they also circled the problem areas on the ones that didnt make the cut... i learned what to look for. it was a great experience"


not sure i would be posting this....doesnt make SGC look good IMO

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  #36  
Old 02-10-2009, 03:04 PM
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Posted By: macboube

Ouch. I would be a little upset at 14/300. Assuming some time was spent evaluating the sub.'s b4 sending in for review, anything less than 10% is bad IMO. Again, I am working at a much, much higher rate of bumps than this with my '55 AA's. Likely the "pack freshness" provenance has a lot to do with it.

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  #37  
Old 02-10-2009, 03:23 PM
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Posted By: Steve

You can price it however you want, but my guess is you will have a hard time finding someone willing to pay a 9 price for a card in an 8 holder.





Just last week I sold a PSA 8 card that according to VCP averaged

350.00, the high was 460.00 and the low 295.00



Mine sold for 465.00





Hi end cards sell for hi end money was the point I was trying to make.



Of course it will be hard (impossible) to get 9 money for an 8 card.



I never said it would, I simply said I'd start it higher.

Or that is at least what my mind was saying at that time. wink.gif





Steve

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Old 02-10-2009, 05:43 PM
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Posted By: rand

i should have made myself much clearer... i sent in 10 cards for regrade. 5 got bumped either 1/2 or 1 point. it was a courtesy on his behalf to review them. i really went through my 33 goudeys carefully, most of the cards were sgc 40 - 60's, that were reviewed and regraded.

two years ago i was building a 65 topps football set. i sent in 2 cards for new tabs.. it was the older style of the 100 pt scale, not both scales. the cards were both sgc 86, i wanted to have the updated label 86/7.5. Sean called me directly , told me both cards were way overgraded and he could not reholder them, he offered to reimburse me for both cards. i told him no problem and i just took it in grading fees. that is a true story!

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  #39  
Old 02-11-2009, 05:20 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

I thought my 8s were 8.00 to 8.99???? Why should any go down if they were all 8.00 to 8.99 to begin with.

To my friend Marshall--I never got an e-mail from you. If I did I would have responded. I do however often penalize sellers who won't sell me cards privately by not bidding on them at auction.

To those of you who think I should go through my cards before I submit them I just don't have the time--for those of you who do and want to help come on over.

jim

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  #40  
Old 02-11-2009, 05:48 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

My Jordan RC went to a 9 from 8 and the others went to 8.5.

Jordan in 9 probably worth $4,000 more in 9. Figure I increased the value of my collection $7500 by doing this.

Its a win/win but a pain to resubmit them all--

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  #41  
Old 02-12-2009, 02:14 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Results looking better and better as I look at the registry.

On my 57 Topps Bskbl set the Tsiriopolis and Gallatins are pop 1s with none higher and in 41 Play Ball Young, Moses and Fletcher all pop 2s with none higher.

Always good to arguably have the best of the card in existence.

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  #42  
Old 02-12-2009, 04:43 PM
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Posted By: Steve

I thought my 8s were 8.00 to 8.99???? Why should any go down if they were all 8.00 to 8.99 to begin with.


That was what I was thinking too Jim.

Glad to hear that your cards are now properly graded.

Steve

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  #43  
Old 02-12-2009, 04:49 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Steve,

I think Barry and some others think thatpsa 8 equals 7.5 to 8.5.

In fact it means 8.0 to 8.99.

Thus if they downgraded a card it would be like admitting they made a mistake......and we all know that psa does not make mistakes happy.gif

Jim

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  #44  
Old 02-12-2009, 05:13 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

But Jim- if they upgrade a card that too is an admission of a mistake, don't you think? happy.gif

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Old 02-12-2009, 05:42 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

When they graded it as an 8 they were saying it was between an 8 and an 8.9. Now that they have the 8.5 grade anything between 8.5 and 8.9 gets the 8.5 grade.

I know you're happy for me and that you think its a fair system happy.gif

Jim

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Old 02-12-2009, 05:43 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hey Jim -- anyone who thinks it's fair that half the people in this country don't have to pay taxes should not have much of a problem with PSA's resubmission policy, right? happy.gif

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Old 02-12-2009, 05:51 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I'm happy for you, but the system is flawed.

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Old 02-12-2009, 05:58 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: Rob D.

Wipe that smile off your comment, Lichtman.

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Old 02-12-2009, 06:17 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: B.C.Daniels

when do we start to see the pedigree of your name on the labels?
Won't Joe do that for you for free as part of your bulk deal?

BcD happy.gif

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Old 02-12-2009, 06:19 PM
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Default My Most Recent 300-Card Submission--14 Upgrades

Posted By: JimCrandell

Good point Jeff. I think if Barry had his way 100% of the increase in value would be taxed away. That would be fair.

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