NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 09-07-2019, 09:59 AM
GasHouseGang's Avatar
GasHouseGang GasHouseGang is offline
David M.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: S. California
Posts: 2,854
Default

Leon, thanks for your help in reposting the article so it's readable.

Last edited by GasHouseGang; 09-07-2019 at 11:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 09-07-2019, 11:26 AM
GaryPassamonte's Avatar
GaryPassamonte GaryPassamonte is offline
GaryPassamonte
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Morris NY
Posts: 1,460
Default

There have been threads ad nauseum recently concerning the various grading "scandals" happening in the hobby today. I will preface my comments by saying that I got out of the grading thing in the 1990s, basically at the inception of grading. I sold almost all my cards and started collecting 19th century photographs. I figured the photographs would not be affected by the new grading craze and that assumption, in my case, has turned out to be true. Just finding most images is difficult and condition is not as important as it is with most cards. I wanted no part of grading and believed that eventually many issues would result. That too has come true. I met Dick Towle once back in the 1990s. He bought some of the cards I sold at the time. I knew nothing of his intent or his future business. I found him to be a pleasant guy. Now fast forward to today. Dick Towle has a business that is doing nothing illegal. He is providing a service, nothing more and nothing less. He is no more guilty of the scandals of today than the grading companies. The whole system is dirty and as long as there are egos it will remain that way.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 09-07-2019, 07:53 PM
steve B steve B is online now
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,086
Default

What bugs me is how many people think that none of this is a problem.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 09-07-2019, 08:40 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
What bugs me is how many people think that none of this is a problem.
Starting with Joseph J. Orlando, apparently.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 09-08-2019, 09:30 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,293
Default

I wasn't aware that Towle can take creases out of cards until I read this article. If it wasn't already apparent, third party grading has virtually no meaning anymore, since nearly every VG card will eventually become a NR MT one. What's the point of even grading cards? Few if any of them are what they appear to be.

Last edited by barrysloate; 09-08-2019 at 09:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 09-08-2019, 10:11 AM
cammb's Avatar
cammb cammb is offline
Tony. Biviano
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 2,461
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCRfan1 View Post
Having spoken to Mr Towle in the past, he is a nice guy.

Whether you agree with his business or not is personal preference. As others have commented, there are numerous threads to review and comments to read to help guide and lead you down a path.

MD do you feel the same about ones who soak a card, because some on the forum have done so.
Agree. In my opinion removing something that was not originally there is not alteration.
__________________
Tony Biviano
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:01 AM
GasHouseGang's Avatar
GasHouseGang GasHouseGang is offline
David M.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: S. California
Posts: 2,854
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
I wasn't aware that Towle can take creases out of cards until I read this article.
I'm pretty sure most people weren't aware that Dick's company offered to take creases out of cards and fix corners. He always talks about the chemicals they have developed to remove gum, wax, and tape stains. He likes to say they only take out things that shouldn't be there anyway. I guess that includes creases.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:06 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GasHouseGang View Post
I'm pretty sure most people weren't aware that Dick's company offered to take creases out of cards and fix corners. He always talks about the chemicals they have developed to remove gum, wax, and tape stains. He likes to say they only take out things that shouldn't be there anyway. I guess that includes creases.
He admitted it here years ago.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:31 AM
GasHouseGang's Avatar
GasHouseGang GasHouseGang is offline
David M.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: S. California
Posts: 2,854
Default

True, but if you didn't happen to read the right post on this board, or the article above, you may think all they are about is removing stains.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:37 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
He admitted it here years ago.
He did. And I should make it clear that I don't personally dislike or even know Dick or his company other than a few choice emails after he was told he could no longer be here. There is no doubt he is NOT doing anything illegal. There is also no doubt his work is NOT being sold transparently all of the time. That is an issue. And what he does just goes against the grain of the fraud we are fighting in the hobby.
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 09-10-2019 at 01:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 09-10-2019, 08:49 AM
GeoPoto's Avatar
GeoPoto GeoPoto is offline
Ge0rge Tr0end1e
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Saint Helena Island, SC
Posts: 1,403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
. . . third party grading has virtually no meaning anymore, since nearly every VG card will eventually become a NR MT one. What's the point of even grading cards? Few if any of them are what they appear to be.
It is not my intention to challenge any of your views regarding TPGs, grading, or card doctoring. I wanted to suggest a possible path forward, one that could make grading even more important. I submit that the TPGs are reasonably competent at grading the cards as presented, despite the unavoidable angst over a half a grade one way or the other. What they have not done historically is identify and screen out doctored cards. So all (or almost all) existing graded cards might have been doctored prior to grading. This uncertainty will weigh on the value of graded cards. The market will sort out those values over time. Another thing the TPGs have not done is keep track of "a digital fingerprint" of each card graded and pool that data so that once a card is graded, it is permanently precluded from being doctored (any further) and then regraded without disclosure. (I am making up digital fingerprint, but it seems to me the TPGs have a clear incentive to implement some form of tracking system so that they can not be exposed ala Breakout in the future.) If I am right, once this system is in place, getting raw cards graded will become the simplest way to put the cards beyond the doctor's reach.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 09-10-2019, 08:57 AM
steve B steve B is online now
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,086
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoPoto View Post
once this system is in place, getting raw cards graded will become the simplest way to put the cards beyond the doctor's reach.
That's exactly where we were 30 years ago...

There are things that could be done to alter the cards digital fingerprint too. (depending on how that digital fingerprint is done)
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:22 AM
GeoPoto's Avatar
GeoPoto GeoPoto is offline
Ge0rge Tr0end1e
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Saint Helena Island, SC
Posts: 1,403
Default

Perhaps the situations are parallel, but I'm not sure the TPGs really signed up to prevent doctoring, but rather committed to standards and practices that were perceived to be adequate to do so. It seems to me now they have no choice but to explicitly prevent the doctoring of previously-graded cards. You are also right that I am assuming the technology is available to support a very effective system for preventing cracking, doctoring, and then regrading without public disclosure. Identifying raw cards that have been doctored may still be difficult.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 09-10-2019, 11:41 AM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
David Ru.dd Cycl.eback
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,466
Default

I think graders are useful at authenticating cards, and that is an important service to collectors and dealers-- all the other stuff (especially obviously alteration detecting) is pointless.

If graders provide high-resolution scans of what they grade, that would be an important step.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoPoto View Post
It is not my intention to challenge any of your views regarding TPGs, grading, or card doctoring. I wanted to suggest a possible path forward, one that could make grading even more important. I submit that the TPGs are reasonably competent at grading the cards as presented, despite the unavoidable angst over a half a grade one way or the other. What they have not done historically is identify and screen out doctored cards. So all (or almost all) existing graded cards might have been doctored prior to grading. This uncertainty will weigh on the value of graded cards. The market will sort out those values over time. Another thing the TPGs have not done is keep track of "a digital fingerprint" of each card graded and pool that data so that once a card is graded, it is permanently precluded from being doctored (any further) and then regraded without disclosure. (I am making up digital fingerprint, but it seems to me the TPGs have a clear incentive to implement some form of tracking system so that they can not be exposed ala Breakout in the future.) If I am right, once this system is in place, getting raw cards graded will become the simplest way to put the cards beyond the doctor's reach.
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 09-10-2019, 12:15 PM
buymycards's Avatar
buymycards buymycards is offline
Rick McQuillan
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,178
Default Hi George

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoPoto View Post
Perhaps the situations are parallel, but I'm not sure the TPGs really signed up to prevent doctoring, but rather committed to standards and practices that were perceived to be adequate to do so. It seems to me now they have no choice but to explicitly prevent the doctoring of previously-graded cards. You are also right that I am assuming the technology is available to support a very effective system for preventing cracking, doctoring, and then regrading without public disclosure. Identifying raw cards that have been doctored may still be difficult.

Hi George, this is from the main PSA webpage where they advertise that they detect trimming.

THE GRADING PROCESS
PSA authenticates both sports and non-sports trading cards across all eras.

A series of PSA graders review your cards for authenticity. If genuine, PSA looks for evidence of doctoring, such as re-coloring or trimming.

If your cards pass these two steps, PSA grades the condition of each card on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being best.

After grading, PSA holders each card in its own tamper-evident case. A label within the case displays the card's pertinent information and unique certification number.
__________________
Rick McQuillan


T213-2 139 down 46 to go.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:52 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
Johnny MaZilli
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,145
Default

Stevie Wonder could do just as good as the PSA Experts at determining wether a card has be trimmed or re-colored.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 09-10-2019, 05:10 PM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
David Ru.dd Cycl.eback
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,466
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
Stevie Wonder could do just as good as the PSA Experts at determining wether a card has be trimmed or re-colored.
Perhaps better
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 09-10-2019, 06:59 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,148
Default

Cant help but wonder if he paid for an ad here, what the judgement would be
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" ©

Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:26 PM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
Cant help but wonder if he paid for an ad here, what the judgement would be
From me it would be the same. You don't have to wonder. And of course it's a non starter as he wouldn't be allowed to advertise in the first place.
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 09-10-2019 at 07:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:32 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
From me it would be the same. You don't have to wonder. And of course it's a non starter as he wouldn't be allowed to advertise in the first place.
Not that long ago PWCC voluntarily asked to take their ad down. Someone advertising soaking cards off album pages is not what the hobby is about.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" ©

Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:40 PM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,196
Default

PWCC did ask and I did it. As things progressed it would have come down anyway. Other than that I am not sure what you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
Not that long ago PWCC voluntarily asked to take their ad down. Someone advertising soaking cards off album pages is not what the hobby is about.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:54 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,148
Default

Transparency

We are all adults. Someone offering to soak cards off album pages is taboo. However someone selling known trimmed recolored cards, shilled and otherwise is defended left and right.

3 pages of drivel.


Leta keep posting to keep his company on page one. Its like a free ad

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" ©

Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 09-10-2019, 08:20 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
Transparency

We are all adults. Someone offering to soak cards off album pages is taboo. However someone selling known trimmed recolored cards, shilled and otherwise is defended left and right.

3 pages of drivel.


Leta keep posting to keep his company on page one. Its like a free ad

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
I have said repeatedly I have no issue with soaking cards out of albums, especially with water. It's a time-honored and essential part of the hobby given how many cards were put into scrapbooks historically. If that were all Dick did, I would have no issue with his work.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-10-2019 at 08:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:35 AM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

What's our best guess as to how long these changes will maintain their illusion? At some point, chemical alteration to these old cards have to start showing, don't they? I refuse to believe that these now undetectable changes will remain as such in perpetuity.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 09-12-2019, 10:30 AM
GasHouseGang's Avatar
GasHouseGang GasHouseGang is offline
David M.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: S. California
Posts: 2,854
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
What's our best guess as to how long these changes will maintain their illusion? At some point, chemical alteration to these old cards have to start showing, don't they? I refuse to believe that these now undetectable changes will remain as such in perpetuity.
Good question. I've wondered the same thing. I also wonder if any creases removed will return. Do we have any actual examples of cards that were treated later deteriorating in the holders?
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 09-12-2019, 10:53 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
Johnny MaZilli
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GasHouseGang View Post
Good question. I've wondered the same thing. I also wonder if any creases removed will return. Do we have any actual examples of cards that were treated later deteriorating in the holders?
It's sad but once said card is in a holder nobody seems to care. I've seen cards in slabs with old PSA grades, with paper loss on front that have tiny specks of paper at bottom of the slab from chemicals/restorations jobs gone band. Maybe one day a card will crumble in a slab. Who knows?

Last edited by Johnny630; 09-12-2019 at 10:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 09-12-2019, 12:53 PM
OldOriole OldOriole is offline
D@ve Se@born
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 262
Default Soaking is Taboo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I have said repeatedly I have no issue with soaking cards out of albums, especially with water. It's a time-honored and essential part of the hobby given how many cards were put into scrapbooks historically. If that were all Dick did, I would have no issue with his work.
Agreed. We just had a great post about a wonderful find of 19th century cards, including many Old Judges. They are, unfortunately (but not surprisingly) attached to album pages. These will eventually get soaked off, as they should. In this manner many collectors can enjoy the individual cards as was originally intended. Soaking is hardly taboo and has been going on for longer than any of us has been collecting. I'd venture to say well over half the Old Judges I've seen originally came out of albums. The albums preserved them and now we can enjoy them....individually. This is exactly what collecting and enjoying some of the older card series is about.

Last edited by OldOriole; 09-12-2019 at 12:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 09-12-2019, 01:10 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,148
Default

I'm against computers because people download porn, and order illegal substances. We should ban computers here

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" ©

Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 09-12-2019, 01:47 PM
jchcollins's Avatar
jchcollins jchcollins is offline
J0hn Collin$
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 3,223
Default

I could be wrong, but I had heard of Dick Towle long before I knew anything about TPG's or bought anything in a slab. It seems to my recollection that I heard his name in the same vein as card "restorers" - which at that time in the 1990's - while budding controversy even then - was kind of a "thing" in some hobby literature. Oh, you can have a card professionally restored just like you can that old Corvette restored. It was generally billed as something that was super expensive to do, but if done right - at least some of the articles I read suggested it was perhaps even noble.

That's kind of a tangent, but I believe it speaks to the time that Towle started and how he's been perceived since, as others have already mentioned - as at least (er, kind of?) transparent about what he does.
__________________
Postwar vintage stars & HOF'ers.

Last edited by jchcollins; 09-12-2019 at 02:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 09-12-2019, 02:52 PM
GasHouseGang's Avatar
GasHouseGang GasHouseGang is offline
David M.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: S. California
Posts: 2,854
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
I could be wrong, but I had heard of Dick Towle long before I knew anything about TPG's or bought anything in a slab. It seems to my recollection that I heard his name in the same vein as card "restorers" - which at that time in the 1990's - while budding controversy even then - was kind of a "thing" in some hobby literature. Oh, you can have a card professionally restored just like you can that old Corvette restored. It was generally billed as something that was super expensive to do, but if done right - at least some of the articles I read suggested it was perhaps even noble.

That's kind of a tangent, but I believe it speaks to the time that Towle started and how he's been perceived since, as others have already mentioned - as at least (er, kind of?) transparent about what he does.
I'm not exactly sure of the timing, but PSA started slabbing cards in 1991, and the article posted above about Dick Towle and his new business is from 1996. So I have to assume that PSA card grading was happening first.
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 09-12-2019, 05:53 PM
jchcollins's Avatar
jchcollins jchcollins is offline
J0hn Collin$
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 3,223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GasHouseGang View Post
I'm not exactly sure of the timing, but PSA started slabbing cards in 1991, and the article posted above about Dick Towle and his new business is from 1996. So I have to assume that PSA card grading was happening first.

You are probably right, and I had just not yet heard of PSA. I quit collecting probably in 1994 while still in high school, and then didn’t get back into it until I was a senior in college in ‘99.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Postwar vintage stars & HOF'ers.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No Stain No Gain JollyElm Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) 3 09-25-2017 06:53 PM
What is that stain on the card? Pythonfactory Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 13 03-30-2014 10:13 AM
Can this stain be removed? HOF Auto Rookies Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 15 03-28-2013 01:18 PM
Stain or Transfer Bwstew Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 12-11-2012 04:21 PM
Name that stain! (c'mon - it's FREE!) Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 10 08-25-2004 12:38 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:23 AM.


ebay GSB