PSA reprint Fro Joy

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Posted By: dan mckee

This one looks like the same stock as the Huggins fake. Does anyone know the seller or have a connection to PSA to get this off of the market? Dan.



http://cgi.ebay.com/1928-FRO-JOY-BABE-RUTH-PSA-EX-MT-6-THE-BABE-LINES-OUT_W0QQitemZ120369008429QQihZ002QQcategoryZ31718Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>

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Posted By: Steve F

What a paradox... Sad, yet so darn funny

" ... THANKS AND GOD BLESS. REMEMBER JOHN 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON AND WHOSOEVER BELEIVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. WHAT A HOPE FOR THE FUTURE..

ALL SALES ARE FINAL.. "

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Posted By: Paul

There is another PSA Fro Joy on eBay, but that one is the real deal (shameless plug)

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Posted By: Steve F

No thanks Paul. I prefer biblical passages with my sportscards.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

There's no inconsistency, Dave F. Baseball cards don't go to Heaven.

Though, I believe 'All sales are final' was coined by the Devil.

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Posted By: leon

PSA should take SGC's lead on these and just not grade them. They are difficult enough for experts.........plus there are stories to be told...I will say no more...regards

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Posted By: dan mckee

This one is good for sure, you can tell because you can see both eyes clearly.

http://cgi.ebay.com/BABE-RUTH-FRO-JOY-PORTRAIT-PSA-3_W0QQitemZ280306247753QQihZ018QQcategoryZ31718QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Paul

Steve, I don't know any biblical passages. I suppose "I'm on the highway to hell". Great album by the way. Dan, I obviously agree with you since I'm selling it. I've handled & studied many Fro Joys over the years. However, there are reprints with the clear eyes, but that is one of the first things I look for too in the portraits.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Sorry Paul, I didn't even look at the seller of the good one. I didn't mean to post a link of your auction here without your permission. Please forgive me my friend. Dan.

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Posted By: Paul

Dan, No sweat at all. I was happy you agree & that you posted the link.

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Posted By: Steve

Is the seller of the problem FroJoy Wentz?

Steve

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Posted By: Jim VB

I don't think so. He's not a Volunteer and the seller is.

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Posted By: dan mckee

No way the Wentz boys, they are way too knowledgable to sell a fake, I know both of them well and can vouch for them, Dan.

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Posted By: MW

Steve,

Looks like you caught me. I was getting a bit short on my inventory of stylish Tommy Hilfiger men's multi-colored striped short-sleeve shirts and was down to my last Liz Claiborne red leather purse so I thought I would also list some nicely colored blue Fro Joys.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Can anyone help remove this fake from our hobby?? Or do you grading fanatics not care that this is entombed in your precious holder?

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Posted By: mark s.

the h&s (#2) and ebay (#3) fro-joys, as well as two others (#'s 4 & 6), were graded in the very same submission...
ironically there is also a "That Cert is not available for display" right in the middle of the sequence!

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Posted By: Anonymous

I remember a PSA blue Fro Joy a few years back, so these new ones may be old. I would assume PSA doesn't grade color ones today.

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Posted By: Steve

Mike



I asked only because the name is similar to yours.



Sorry I did not mean to hurt your reputation.



I did not think so either.



Steve

edited to add: lol Good one Mike, I did not even look to see what else the guy was
selling, I saw the bmw and thought of you. Hey they say any publicity is good publicity.

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Posted By: Steve

Can anyone help remove this fake from our hobby?? Or do you grading fanatics not care that this is entombed in your precious holder?




Dan did you email the seller with your concerns?


Steve

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Posted By: Eric B

Seller has 1000 rating with 100% Feedback Rating. Card is graded. i would think he does not know it is a fake and he would not act upon the email of a stranger who could just be a crackpot trying to ruin auctions.

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Posted By: Jason

I remember selling a large deal to the guy about 8 or 9 years ago. While not as experienced or as knowledgable in the vintage arena, from what I remember he was a really good guy. I cannot remember his name, but he used to sell alot of groups on ebay. I really do not think his intentions would be bad. I am sure he got duped and probably is sticking by PSA's opinion that the card is legit. I rmemebr getting into a debate over the phone with Giddings or Gizmo over this same issue once before. Of course him being the GAI midwest expert he knew his Fro Joys (colored) were the real deal!

Jason

Thanks
Jason

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Posted By: Steve

Eric or he may appreciate the heads up too.

I don't know enough about the issue or I would do it.

Someone that knows the nuances of this issue would be more

believable IMO.

Steve

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Posted By: leon

It's really pretty easy most of the times. If the Fro Joy in question has any kind of color, besides black and white, it's a fake/reprint. The black and white reprints can be a little tougher. The card in question is obviously a fake. I will reiterate myself...PSA shouldn't grade them. I would trust Beckett or SGC but know SGC won't grade them and not sure if Beckett does...regards

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Posted By: David M

Leon, I'm not an expert but I don't understand why there should be ANY card that PSA or any other grading service refuses to grade. If they aren't smart enough to tell the difference between real and fake then they need to get some training. Isn't this their business and isn't this what we pay them for? There are some very good fakes out there of much more expensive cards, yet they don't refuse to grade those issues. If I happened to have a collection of Fro Joy's I'd be ticked off that I could never hope to sell them for the premium that a real card should bring.

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Posted By: leon

"If they aren't smart enough to tell the difference between real and fake then they need to get some training."

I agree, but they won't get the training and/or experience so should not grade them. How many mistakes do we need to see? Plus, I believe there are some black and white ones that are almost impossible to tell fake from real.....

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Posted By: marshall barkman

What PSA should do is have a list of cards that have beed widely duplicated or faked. Then only let one grader who has knowledge of the fakes and what to look for grade these particular cards. It's not like PSA recieves 500 Fro-Joy cards per week.

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Posted By: Steve

When SGC is alerted to a problem like this I think they usually
try to buy the item in question. Maybe someone with a decent
repore could notify PSA about this? Brian?


Steve

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Really someone should notify the seller on E-bay and let him deal with PSA in regards to the situation.

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Posted By: Paul

David, I agree with you. Also, its not that hard to determine if a Fro Joy is authentic or not when someone with experience has it in hand. I suspect the grading companies shy away from grading them because its a pain constantly having to deal with the barrage of reprints, & the real ones are actually somewhat rare. Below is a few thing to look for. Leon was correct about any type of color is a reprint. The cards must be black & white. Dan was also correct about the clarity. Original Fro Joys have quite a bit of clarity except for two of them- The babe bangs one out, & the babe comes home. Don't remember the card numbers at the moment. Below are scans of a fake Ruth portrait & a real one. Notice the clarity difference when looking at his eyes. Also, the two print defects near the front right/top corner border on the fake is a sure sign its fake. Real Fro joys must also have two things. The box on the back must not have any line breaks near the corners, & they must be printed using a photoengraved technique. There are reprints out there made by Repli-Cards that have more clarity & the solid boxes on the back, but they are not photoengraved. Also, they just don't look vintage. I suppose its possible that photoengraved reprints exist, but this has not been proven that I know of. Even if someone had the original printing plates, they would need to duplicate the ink, card stock, etc...


AUTEHNIC FRO JOY


FAKE FRO JOY- PLEASE NOTICE THE LACK OF CLARITY & TWO PRINT DEFECTS NEAR THE TOP/RIGHT BORDER


REAL PHOTOENGRAVED FRO JOY-PLEASE NOTICE THE PRINTING DOTS DARK RIM


FAKE FRO JOY- PLEASE NOTICE PRINTING DOTS HAVE NO DARK RIM & DIFFERENT CARD STOCK

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Posted By: Jim VB

I emailed the seller a couple of hours ago. I told him that PSA had made an error. His card was a reprint, and he should end the auction, return it to PSA and ask for reimbursement of all his expenses.

I have not gotten a response yet. However his response, when it comes will be telling about his motives.


Leon,

Isn't this the set that had the original printing plates lost or stolen and cards were reprinted years later with the original plates? Colored ink is easy, but if someone has the original plates, grading others in B&W becomes much more difficult.

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Posted By: leon

Yes, that is a known major problem.....I emailed with someone about that yesterday....

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Posted By: davidcycleback

For those wondering about Paul's PSA Fro Joy, I can testify that Paul knows how to tell the difference between a real and reprint Fro Joy. We have conversed in the past about the very issue, and he is knowledgeable about Fro Joys.

All B & W reprints I have seen were lithographs, while the originals were photoengravings (old time form of printing). As Paul's above pictures show, one can tell the difference with a microscope. There are other naked eye details that identify reprintns, for example the black line box on the original is complete, while the lines are often broken on reprints. For black & white examples, a simple check is the back black box. It was Paul who taught me this test.

As already noted, all color Fro Joys are reprints-- no close examination required to determine that.

Of note, there was a boxer Gene Tunney version of the Fro Joys (same except depicting Tunney). These haven't been reprinted like the Ruth. A collector can pick up a Tunney for fun or reference, and I know Bob Lemke once use Tunney cards as a reference when writing an article about the Ruth fakes.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

If you hog the Tunney cards to test the Ruth cards, how are we boxing guys supposed to complete our sets?

BVG will grade the Fro Joys. They handled several of mine at the National. Did a nice job, too.

I completely agree that for a third party authenticator not to be able to authenticate an issue is pretty pathetic. And to then slab an obvious fake...yipes!

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Paul

Thanks for the kind words. It was your website that got me interested in authentication, so thanks again. Also, I mentioned earlier that the Fro Joy reprints made by Repli-Cards also have the solid back box, so that needs to be considered. However, those Repli-Card reprints shouldn't fool experienced collectors. They don't look vintage. Sincerely, Paul

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Please shorten the ebay URL as such before posting.....all you need is the info up to the 12 digit #......
the rest of the "gobbly-gook" is extraneous.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1928-FRO-JOY-BABE-RUTH-PSA-EX-MT-6-THE-BABE-LINES-OUT_W0QQitemZ120369008429

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Posted By: Paul

I ended my listing since I had no bids. Not because I doubt it's authenticity, but all this Fro Joy talk has got me fired up about studying these some more. That Ruth was my last authentic portrait, so I'm going to keep it for now. I apologize if anybody had it on their watch list.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

As far as the comment that PSA should be able to expertly judge everything that is set them, I say it's a strength to know your weaknesses. A genuine expert in any area-- paintings to autographs-- will tell you there are many things they don't know, and that it would it would be a big mistake in judgment for him to give a thumbs or or down on anything and everything put in front of his nose. Most of professional authenticatings's most famous bloopers are the product of grading too much (both in kind and volume) rather than too little.

Of course, professional authenticators should be in the business of expanding their knowledge and abilities, and be able to authenticator more items. If a grader doesn't holder a legitimate standard issue today, it's not too much for a collector to expect the the grader to get working on it. In fact, I know some grading companies actively study new areas of memorabilia (say postcards, tickets, photos) so they can holder them for customers in the future. It's their benefit to be able to holder more stuff.

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Posted By: David M

David, I understand what you are saying but I don't believe I ever said PSA should be able to grade/judge anything set before them. However, trading cards are their expertise. From PSA's website:

Were the Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) -- the worlds largest third-party authentication service. No more guesswork or taking the word of one dealer over another. Now you can have your trading cards and tickets graded by an unbiased group of the hobbys most experienced grading experts -- and at the same time be assured that the only interest they have in your cards and tickets is to make sure theyre properly graded and carefully preserved. PSAs permanent grading standard is recognized industry-wide as the best possible form of consumer protection. So when you see a card or ticket for sale in a holder displaying the PSA logo, youll know you can buy with the confidence that it has been properly and professionally graded. If you want to verify the grade of your item before you sell, have it graded by PSA and realize its full value without leaving any money on the table. And if its safe, long-term storage youre after, PSAs tamper-evident holder offers the most visually appealing form of safe storage known. Our protective inert, optical-grade plastic holder will help keep your top collectibles in great shape for years to come.

The Fro-Joys certainly fit into this category. We already have several people on this board that have told us how to identify a phony. However, PSA doesn't feel comfortable with their level of expertise in this issue. I guess I'm back to "taking the word of one dealer over another" as PSA says.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I agree that the Fro Joys qualify as a standard, cataloged issue that have been around the hobby for years. It's not something with five tentacles and three eyes that just washed on shore. If collectors say some graders should get a cracking, I understand that.

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Posted By: Steve

Yep no excuse they have to be able to grade and authenticate this issue.


Steve

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Posted By: davidcycleback

To be frank, at any given moment in time I don't know who does and doesn't grade Fro Joys. Musical chairs. Though, if my knowledge is up to date, Beckett grades Fro Joys and is capable at authenticating the issue.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Ted who cares how long the link is?? Just click on it to see it bro.



I just copy the url when I am inside the listing



Marshall, PSA needs to hire someone before they can do what you suggested as they have no one with that kind of knowledge grading right now that I am aware of.



As Paul stated, in hand it is fairly easy to tell the real from the fakes



As leon stated, many B&W fakes are tough to tell by scans

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Posted By: Paul

The seller of the PSA graded blue tint Fro joy emailed me, & let me know that he contacted Joe Orlando. He's going to send them in to PSA, & a senior grader will re-evaluate them. Scot (the seller) seems like a good guy.

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Posted By: dan mckee

The comical part is re-evaluated by a senior grader at PSA. Obviously they are CLUELESS or this fake would have never made it past. Remember, a senior so called grader at PSA re-evaluated the Nodgrass I had to CRUSH them on in Mastro auctions, sorry Joe, you know I love you cause you are SO HONEST!

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Back in a PSA holder as the newly-discovered blue ink variation...yeah, that't the ticket...

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Jim VB

Paul,

I also emailed the seller 3 days ago. He never responded and the auction is still up, so I guess he hasn't sent it to PSA just quite yet.

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Posted By: Paul

Hi Jim, he mentioned in his email that he was ending the auction. He seemed sincere....

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Posted By: mike garcia

Talk about your auction finds......http://www.leonardauction.com/catalogs/70/203.php

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Posted By: Bob

I guess if you take a $2 reprint and throw some dirt and oil on it, it becomes a vintage collectible.