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  #1  
Old 12-16-2021, 12:28 PM
HexsHeroes HexsHeroes is offline
Vincent Hecksel
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Default Santa, I would like a Herman Germany Schaefer autograph for Christmas

A recent thread by member GrayGhost (Scott) in the Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions section titled "My top five dream hobby gifts" got me thinking about what dream item (white whale) I would covet most, and what that item would cost to purchase (if available).

That item would be a autograph/signature of Herman "Germany" Schaefer.

While a couple of "Prince Henry" signed items, and possibly equal number of team signed baseballs with his signature abound in the hobby, those are the only items I am aware of. (PS-I now see both Kevin Keating sold a cut in 2000, and Jim Stinson sold a narrow cut mounted with T205 card on a 3x5, also in 2000). Just wondering what a flat item (letter, document, signature cut) would set me back today, if one were to make itself available ? Are we talking $1000-$2000, or are we talking $5000-$10000 ?

I realize we are not talking about a ballplayer autograph with the universal recognition or demand that Babe Ruth generates, but curious as Germany Schaefer's on and off field antics has spawn fun story telling over the years, and with it some name recognition. Just wondering . . . And wishing (if Santa is monitoring this chat )

Last edited by HexsHeroes; 12-16-2021 at 01:27 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-16-2021, 06:20 PM
prewarsports prewarsports is offline
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Default Sockalexis

I would second that with a similar name, Louis Sockalexis. If I could ever find one I would pay "whatever I need too" for that one. Second would be a Roy Castleton for personal reasons. Both in theory should exist, but an example of both men is yet to be confirmed so I may be wishing for a looooooong time!
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  #3  
Old 12-22-2021, 08:06 PM
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Yea he’s on my list too! Never see anything come up. Same with a Hal Chase signature.


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  #4  
Old 01-09-2022, 02:31 AM
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Saw one sold on Ebay for $700+ today


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  #5  
Old 01-09-2022, 06:18 AM
BillyCox3 BillyCox3 is offline
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I would certainly like to know if there was any additional information given to Beckett which gave them the confidence to authenticate that Schaefer. As a standalone cut signature coupled with what little exists to compare it to, I would never have been able to authenticate that.

Granted, there are precious few authentic examples known in the hobby, but I don't recall a single one that was signed "Germany". For the most part, none resemble this handwriting, either. There are a couple of letters contained within the signature that do bear a resemblance to two letters found in exactly one of the authentic exemplars. That would be far too little for me to give the go-ahead on. (Before anyone asks, I don't wish to post my Germany Schaefer exemplars to prove my point, nor will they be shared privately. If this is of interest, people can do a little auction archive digging, etc. to generate some examples to look at.). Due to the factors mentioned, I'd be inconclusive at best. That might be rather charitable of me, but it's the right place to be.

Last edited by BillyCox3; 01-09-2022 at 06:36 AM.
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  #6  
Old 01-09-2022, 10:33 AM
HexsHeroes HexsHeroes is offline
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I remember when this same item appeared on eBay years ago, and I passed on it then. And this time around, I passed on it again for some of the reasons Jodi mentioned. Mainly, being a closely cropped cut, and signed as “Germany”. The lack of early interest by other experienced bidders was also noted. Even though I need for my vintage Detroit Tigers autograph collection, this specimen concerned me enough to pass on this opportunity. Hopefully it will pan out for the winning bidder.
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  #7  
Old 01-09-2022, 01:16 PM
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I avoided this as well. I have 4 examples of his autograph and not only did he not sign it "Germany" bit the Schaefer didn't match at all. Also I wanted the Candy Lachance until I realized it looked off as well and the paper looked very close to the Schaefer. This is the same seller that had closely cropped Sherry Magee and a Jake Stahl that seemed off as well. I don't think the seller is intentionally selling fakes but I do believe these closely cropped sigs are fake
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Old 01-09-2022, 07:33 PM
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I agree, the Schaefer was ridiculous. But I thought the LaChance was spot on. Most of this seller’s items are fine, but some - Magee, Daubert, Seymour, Schaefer were not authentic.
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File Type: jpg 8AC83C34-E10F-4AB5-956E-FB3E50C1DA87.jpg (9.6 KB, 170 views)
File Type: jpg E1343726-455C-4C13-8515-797939AA0A7D.jpg (12.4 KB, 171 views)
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  #9  
Old 01-09-2022, 07:43 PM
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With the LaChance what concerned me the most is it seems like it's on the same paper as the Schaefer. That could with the Schaefer being most likely bad I passed on the LaChance. Too bad I'd have really liked to have a genuine auto of either of them.
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Old 01-09-2022, 07:48 PM
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I didn’t notice that. But the Daubert and Magee were on the same paper as well. Good catch!
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  #11  
Old 01-09-2022, 08:29 PM
BillyCox3 BillyCox3 is offline
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I was looking at that LaChance and while I too felt it stood a shot at being fine, it was one of those instances where I'd have really liked to have inspected it in person before pulling the trigger and/or arriving at a final determination. Some of the autographs being discussed were clearly taped over a very long time ago, including this one. While the letter formation of the LaChance was agreeable, there's something going on with it that I'm unable to pinpoint from a photo alone. It's stilted or jagged--more so than LaChance's usual signature, which could be described that way at this point in his life even in other examples. It could simply be the ink's reaction to the tape over time, but I also would like to inspect with a loupe & VSC in an attempt to determine if it had been enhanced. Again, just unable to draw a proper conclusion based on the photo.

I've known the seller for a long time and would have been fully confident in a hassle-free return if I had won and voiced any concern after receiving. I opted to refrain from bidding this time around, however.

Last edited by BillyCox3; 01-09-2022 at 08:32 PM.
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  #12  
Old 01-10-2022, 07:47 AM
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I believe Jim Stinson sold a Schaefer in September 2000, which was written similarly like this — first name Germany, similar size and structure. But even that one looked different from this one.

I purchased the Monte Cross featured below from this apparent collection of close cropped, taped over signatures several months ago. But I have been uncomfortable with it, even though it had been encapsulated by BAS as well. Since then I’ve passed on all of the T206 players like Schaefer that have come along from this collection. There are so many red flags with Schaefer and a lot of these signatures, I can’t really understand what BAS was thinking. It feels to me like maybe some purported provenance of all of them together has lended credibility to them all as a whole.

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Last edited by T206Collector; 01-10-2022 at 07:49 AM.
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  #13  
Old 01-10-2022, 07:52 AM
BillyCox3 BillyCox3 is offline
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I didn't put the Cross together with the others, although Paul did show me this one recently. The above bears zero resemblance to Cross' authentic autograph. Again, I'd really love to know what anyone was thinking if they opined that this signature was authentic.

Last edited by BillyCox3; 01-10-2022 at 07:54 AM.
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  #14  
Old 01-10-2022, 08:40 AM
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Here are a few others that are "related" in my view...





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  #15  
Old 01-10-2022, 10:22 AM
MikeMc MikeMc is offline
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Tragically was out-bid in that Ebay auction. Would have been the jewel of my Germany Schaefer collection. Though the insights in this thread have made me feel better that I wouldn't have had the full confidence I'd hope for that it was authentic.
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Last edited by MikeMc; 01-10-2022 at 10:45 AM.
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  #16  
Old 01-11-2022, 07:11 AM
HexsHeroes HexsHeroes is offline
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MikeMc,

I would be interested in reading your story on how/why you collect Germany Schaefer ?

Care to share ?
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  #17  
Old 01-13-2022, 10:25 AM
HexsHeroes HexsHeroes is offline
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Default Comparison

FYI

Below is a black & white photocopy image of a "Germany" Schaefer signed cut on 3x5 (with attached T207 card) advertised in September 2000 (that Paul/T206Collector referred to),
and snip of the recently sold eBay "Germany" Schaefer signed cut on 3x5 semi-imposed below it for comparison purposes . . .

.

Last edited by HexsHeroes; 01-13-2022 at 10:26 AM.
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2022, 07:35 AM
MikeMc MikeMc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HexsHeroes View Post
MikeMc,

I would be interested in reading your story on how/why you collect Germany Schaefer ?

Care to share ?
It's because of all the stories about Germany Schaefer in "Glory of Their Times". I read that book when I was only 12 and it locked in a love of all things old-time baseball. Schaefer was such an amazing character from that era, and collecting his cards was a way to tap into that era. But since he's not a HOFer whose cards are particularly valuable - it's about luck in finding the cards - as opposed to spending an awful lot of money on each one.
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Old 01-14-2022, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HexsHeroes View Post
FYI

Below is a black & white photocopy image of a "Germany" Schaefer signed cut on 3x5 (with attached T207 card) advertised in September 2000 (that Paul/T206Collector referred to),
and snip of the recently sold eBay "Germany" Schaefer signed cut on 3x5 semi-imposed below it for comparison purposes . . .

.
Well that’s interesting and does change things a bit.
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  #20  
Old 01-14-2022, 08:45 AM
BillyCox3 BillyCox3 is offline
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Quote:
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Well that’s interesting and does change things a bit.
Maybe, and maybe not.

It does likely answer the question as to the exemplar (or "exemplar") used to authenticate the piece in question. I still remain unconvinced that either can be definitively authenticated as compared to the rest of the exemplars of which I am aware. The majority of these date from the Tour and are also signed by others who took part in this moment in baseball history. They're all in period ink, and the other MLB player autographs on these items appear free from issue from my recollection. These Schaefer autographs all bear resemblance to one another, whereas the two in question are outsiders, if you will. Finding a matching example to the cut which recently sold does nothing to sway my initial position as detailed in an earlier post. Unlike the multi-signed Tour pieces mentioned, these two are tiny, standalone cuts with no known back story to serve as provenance. They were clearly written a long time ago, so any nefarious intent can certainly be ruled out.

My hypothesis at this point is this: They may not be secretarial/clubhouse, but perhaps a case of someone identifying something to do with Schaefer a long time ago. At some point, these writings may have been innocently confused by a family member for the real thing when a pioneering collector wrote to them and asked if they had an autograph to spare. These pieces were accepted by the collector as genuine and remained in various collections over the decades. We've seen this happen more than once with other players.

While it would be incredibly beneficial if we had documents signed by Schaefer, I don't ever recall seeing anything of the sort. Has anyone else? Hopefully, something will be unearthed some day. I've been searching for a very long time. I don't seem to have a copy of his WWI draft registration card on file. Although it's been many years since I scoured that resource to seek every player exemplar I could find, I have a vague recollection that I did find the Schaefer card and it was unsigned--likely due to his being a patient at the time. Maybe someone else might confirm, as I'm only going by an aging memory.

Last edited by BillyCox3; 01-14-2022 at 09:00 AM.
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  #21  
Old 01-14-2022, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyCox3 View Post
My hypothesis at this point is this: They may not be secretarial/clubhouse, but perhaps a case of someone identifying something to do with Schaefer a long time ago. At some point, these writings may have been innocently confused by a family member for the real thing when a pioneering collector wrote to them and asked if they had an autograph to spare. These pieces were accepted by the collector as genuine and remained in various collections over the decades. We've seen this happen more than once with other players.
I certainly have seen that phenomenon a couple of times over the past 14 months or so that I have been researching T206 player autographs.

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I don't seem to have a copy of his WWI draft registration card on file. Although it's been many years since I scoured that resource to seek every player exemplar I could find, I have a vague recollection that I did find the Schaefer card and it was unsigned--likely due to his being a patient at the time. Maybe someone else might confirm, as I'm only going by an aging memory.
I do not have his WWI draft card in my exemplars, but I may have not dug particularly deep because I had another one. I'll look again...
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Old 01-14-2022, 09:23 AM
BillyCox3 BillyCox3 is offline
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I do want to stress that I personally can not say that the signatures in question are 100% not signed / signed by Schaefer, nor can anyone else. My thoughts and theories are just that.

As with so many other rare autographs, we suffer from a complete lack of an evolutionary chronology of Schaefer's handwriting and signature. The exemplars commonly accepted as authentic all date to a very specific blip in his short life, which doesn't help matters. Imagine if he hadn't participated as a member of the Tour? We'd be completely at a loss!
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Old 01-17-2022, 05:28 AM
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Default Germany Schaefer

Mike McC
Given your interest, I thought you might like this image of him in a NYAL uni. He only played one game for them in 1916 and this is the only image I have ever run across. Maybe pretending to be (or actually) drunk...
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Old 01-17-2022, 08:32 PM
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Here are 2 documents containing a total of 3 Schaefer signatures. 1918 US passport application and his 1918 draft card. Th passport application was signed twice, the draft card once.
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Old 01-17-2022, 08:58 PM
BillyCox3 BillyCox3 is offline
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Wonderful, Steve! I didn't find these when I was searching years ago. I did find his 1913 passport application for the Tour, but the page I found wasn't signed.

I wonder if I was unable to locate this particular draft card way back when due to the "William Herman". I remember "Herman A. Schaefer" being used and accepted for the longest time and could very well have not been searching using the true name. Does anyone recall when his full name was first discovered? As mentioned, I have a vague recollection of finding a draft registration but didn't save it, likely due to being unsigned or a damaged scan. There certainly are cases of some people/players filling out more than one of these. Again, this could be an incorrect memory; I searched for and found so many of them!

Last edited by BillyCox3; 01-17-2022 at 09:09 PM.
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  #26  
Old 01-17-2022, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss View Post
Here are 2 documents containing a total of 3 Schaefer signatures. 1918 US passport application and his 1918 draft card. Th passport application was signed twice, the draft card once.
The “f” is way different than the BAS version; as is the second letter of first name “e”. This doesn’t help the case for authenticity.
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