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  #1  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:44 AM
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Default Who needs the Hall of Fame anyway?!

Maybe I'm bored but I was thinking it might make an interesting thread. Can you name any player/coaches/managers, etc. in MLB history who didnt get into the Hall of Fame because of scandal, shortened career, etc., but it doesnt seem to matter. They have reached iconic status anyway through their famous or infamous acts on or off the field? Does this make sense? Anyway, here are the three that came to mind for me....

Joe Jackson (.356 lifetime BA)

Pete Rose (all time hit king)

Thurman Munson (first Yankee captain since Gehrig and only Yankee to have won both an MVP and ROY awards.)

Last edited by 53Browns; 06-03-2011 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:08 AM
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Hal Chase is generally acknowledged as being self destructive and is sort of borderline anyway.

Ken Hubbs was way too early to tell, but seemed to be off to a good start.

Maury Wills' post career tarnished a pretty good case for being a hall of famer.

Pete Reiser may have been among the best had he just not played so darn hard.

And, you know, his career was brief, but Bo Jackson had the potential to do things no one else could.

Herb Score is another whose career was probably altered by an injury.
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  #3  
Old 06-03-2011, 07:20 AM
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Mark McGwire
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  #4  
Old 06-03-2011, 08:39 AM
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Ed Cicotte, Lefty O'Doul
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:14 AM
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Thurman Munson? Just because you play for the Yankees does not mean that you should be in the Hall of Fame. From his ERA alone, I will take Bench, Fisk and Carter over him.
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  #6  
Old 06-03-2011, 09:36 AM
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Smoky Joe Wood
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  #7  
Old 06-03-2011, 09:42 AM
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Cecil Travis- skills eroded by service in World War II (Battle of the Bulge)

He led the AL in hits in 1941 and finished second in batting average that year as well.

Last edited by Big Ben; 06-03-2011 at 09:45 AM.
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  #8  
Old 06-03-2011, 09:42 AM
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No scandal here, but being a Twins guy I'm pushing for Tony Oliva
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  #9  
Old 06-03-2011, 09:49 AM
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Default Oh what should have been...

Don Mattingly...sure hope he gets the ring as a manager that eluded him as a player...
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  #10  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:11 AM
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Default how about...

I honestly think Roger Maris should be in the HOF. What he means to baseball records and baseball history. Come on, he was an MVP.

Bo Jackson - was simply AWESOME!
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  #11  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacDice View Post
Thurman Munson? Just because you play for the Yankees does not mean that you should be in the Hall of Fame. From his ERA alone, I will take Bench, Fisk and Carter over him.
I am not a Munson hater...and think with a few more productive years he would have been worthy of consideration, but another from this era that REALLY gets overlooked is Ted Simmons. His stats are right in line with many catchers in the HOF, but few people even remember him.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben View Post
Cecil Travis- skills eroded by service in World War II (Battle of the Bulge)

He led the AL in hits in 1941 and finished second in batting average that year as well.
Learned a lot about him doing my blog post on his Double Play card.
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  #13  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:19 AM
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Default Roger Maris

I think Roger Maris should be in. He had great stats and was a great clutch hitter that the stats do not show. He was also a standup guy and the definition of a class act. I mean come on, you can't tell me that Dizzy Dean got into the hall based on his numbers alone. Some of it was the personalty that he had and the fans he had as a announcer after he retired.

Also, what was the scandal that tarnished Maury Wills after he retired as a player? Just curious.


Tony Turner
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  #14  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:27 AM
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I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me, based on statistical analysis and not simply the opinion that he didn't play long enough or hit enough home runs in spacious Comiskey Park, that Minnie Minoso is not worthy of the Hall of Fame. Stats guru Bill james agrees and says he's the best eligible player outside Cooperstown. If you doubt me, compare his stats to those of Richie Ashburn, an outfielder from the same era. It's not even close. In fact, his OPS is better than Roberto Clemente, Ernie Banks or Enos Slaughter. As for his glove, he was part of the initial class of Gold Glove winners ... an honor that eluded Clemente and Ashburn. For more about baseball's most underappreciated player, here is a long ramble by me on the subject ...

http://minnieminoso.blogspot.com
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  #15  
Old 06-03-2011, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbcard1 View Post
Learned a lot about him doing my blog post on his Double Play card.
Nice blog. I didn't care for the Double Play cards at first, but have grown to like them as I have picked up a few over the past couple of years.
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  #16  
Old 06-03-2011, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbcard1 View Post
I am not a Munson hater...and think with a few more productive years he would have been worthy of consideration, but another from this era that REALLY gets overlooked is Ted Simmons. His stats are right in line with many catchers in the HOF, but few people even remember him.
I have said many times that Simmons numbers are right up there with the all time greats at that position. It really is a shame he gets overlooked.
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Last edited by Robextend; 06-03-2011 at 11:36 AM.
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  #17  
Old 06-03-2011, 01:33 PM
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Default Maris

275 HR
850 RBI
.260 average
statistically most comparable players Bob Allison and Hank Sauer
come on
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  #18  
Old 06-03-2011, 01:46 PM
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http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/frankleftyodoulcard

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  #19  
Old 06-03-2011, 01:50 PM
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How about Carl Furillo or Gil Hodges?
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  #20  
Old 06-03-2011, 01:51 PM
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-

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  #21  
Old 06-03-2011, 01:52 PM
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How about Jim Thorpe as a baseball player.......
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  #22  
Old 06-03-2011, 02:16 PM
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The rest of the Black Sox, including the manager, Kid Gleason. Various Cuban and Negro leaguers who haven't made the HOF.
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  #23  
Old 06-03-2011, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
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Lefty O'Doul
The HoF should consider lifetime statistics that include PreWW2 Pacific Coast League.... IMO.
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  #24  
Old 06-03-2011, 02:37 PM
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A few who I haven't seen named:

Mark Fidrych - remarkable rookie season, great personality and then injuries

Rocky Colavito - Great 10 year run, cult favorite, most similar to Reggie Jackson during his last decent year at the age of 33.

Denny McLain - 30 game winner, 2 Cy Youngs, amazing early career, so much potential

Ted Klu - Similar to Colavito but for a shorter period. Surprising stat to me for a power hitter like Klu. I noticed several seasons he had far more homers then he had strikeouts.
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  #25  
Old 06-03-2011, 02:40 PM
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Riggs Stephenson - Incredible hitter, but a college football injury nagged him too much for him to be a fulltime player.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...tephri01.shtml
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  #26  
Old 06-03-2011, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
A few who I haven't seen named:

Mark Fidrych - remarkable rookie season, great personality and then injuries

Rocky Colavito - Great 10 year run, cult favorite, most similar to Reggie Jackson during his last decent year at the age of 33.

Denny McLain - 30 game winner, 2 Cy Youngs, amazing early career, so much potential

Ted Klu - Similar to Colavito but for a shorter period. Surprising stat to me for a power hitter like Klu. I noticed several seasons he had far more homers then he had strikeouts.
Colavito is a good one.I live near him. Very nice person!Had some great years.

Last edited by 39special; 06-03-2011 at 02:43 PM. Reason: Forgot something
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2011, 02:43 PM
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Career cut short -- Tony Conigliaro.
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:07 PM
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Now, this is usually my go to name in these types of discussions, but I'll say it again. Albert Belle.

Also, Joe Torre should've been in the Hall a long time ago as a player. And the fact that Gil Hodges and Ron Santo aren't in still confuses me to this day. Mel Harder is another guy, who I'd consider one of the game's greats, especially with all that he contributed to the Cleveland Indians franchise as both a player and coach(I'd say his overall contribution is what should put his borderline career over the top).. Also, I've always believed that Dale Murphy is criminally underrated..

Amongst Negro Leaguers, I'd have to say Buck O'neil(mostly for all contributions in general), John Donaldson, Luis "Lefty" Tiant Sr. and Grant "Home Run" Johnson to start with.

Last edited by novakjr; 06-03-2011 at 06:08 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2011, 07:09 PM
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in no particular order:

Roger Maris
Billy Martin
Ted simmons- (compare his stats to other catchers in the hof)
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  #30  
Old 06-03-2011, 08:25 PM
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Both these were mentioned, but I agree

Smokey Joe Wood- just as poular as if he was in, great comeback story. Also highly recommend listening to him speak on the audio version of 'Glory of their times'-fascinating storyteller.

Hal Trosky- great hitter and has one of the top 5 coolest cards ever produced-1934-36 Diamond Star
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  #31  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:55 PM
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I second (or third) Cecil Travis. My favorite fact about him is that the only person who outhit him in 1941 was Teddy Ballgame, which means he outhit Joe D and his Streak. He also was a great ttm signer, not to mention a war hero.
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  #32  
Old 06-04-2011, 01:24 AM
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Jim Kaat, Luis Tiant, Jack Morris, and Tim Raines
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  #33  
Old 06-05-2011, 12:00 AM
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Ron Santo has earned it
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  #34  
Old 06-10-2011, 02:42 PM
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I'll throw in for Cecil Travis as well. I think someone whose career was stunted by WW2 service should receive extra special consideration.

I'll go for Joe Wood too. I'll take a relatively short period of dominance and extreme excellence (e.g. Koufax, Dean) over numbers compiled though longgevity (e.g. Niekro) any day.
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  #35  
Old 06-10-2011, 05:49 PM
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Fred McGriff
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  #36  
Old 06-11-2011, 02:25 AM
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Default "The Crime Dog"

I'll second Fred McGriff........he was incredibly steady. One could almost pencil in 30 HR'S and 100+ RBI's every preseason..............the "Crime Dog" has not gotten his just deserts..........
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  #37  
Old 06-11-2011, 03:31 AM
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Default The winningest Hispanic pitcher

Dennis Martinez and World series hero and 250 game winner Jack Morris (heck Martinez even fell off of the HOF ballot)
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  #38  
Old 06-11-2011, 04:58 AM
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Roger Maris without a doubt!!


Also agree with Dennis Martinez and Fred McGriff too!!
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  #39  
Old 06-11-2011, 06:31 AM
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Ken Williams ....319 lifetime BA

Thoughts?
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  #40  
Old 06-11-2011, 07:34 AM
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Default great thread, Bill!

These are good instances where players should not have been omitted.
As for those banished, I can say that we are all only human. I like my baseball like the real world: where people make mistakes.
This makes me wonder if there was a card collectors Hall of Fame if I'd be banned for "off the cardboard" things I did!
Have a great weekend my friends!
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  #41  
Old 06-11-2011, 09:20 AM
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In going with the the OP's premise, Dave Orr fits perfectly. A stroke closed down what was surely a HOF career. He hit in the .340s over 8 years.
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  #42  
Old 06-11-2011, 10:53 PM
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Larry Doyle should be in. He was the greatest second baseman of his generation, I'd even say the greatest second baseman the game had ever seen when he retired. That makes you a HOFer in my opinion.

I don't know why Jimmy Ryan isn't in.

Fred McGriff and Larry Walker are HOFers to me. If either ever get in I think it's going to be a while.

His vote hasn't come up yet, but I think Andy Pettite is a HOFer as well. He has the HGH cloud over him, but I still think he belongs in the Hall.

Last edited by packs; 06-11-2011 at 10:54 PM.
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  #43  
Old 06-11-2011, 11:02 PM
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Sam Leever
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  #44  
Old 06-12-2011, 12:26 AM
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[QUOTE=packs;900591]Larry Doyle should be in. He was the greatest second baseman of his generation, I'd even say the greatest second baseman the game had ever seen when he retired. That makes you a HOFer in my opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A worthy hall of famer and perhaps the greatest 2B in the NL at the time but ALers Nap Lajoie and Eddie Collins were both head and shoulders above him.

Last edited by howard38; 06-12-2011 at 12:27 AM.
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  #45  
Old 06-12-2011, 01:56 AM
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Ah yes you are right. I should have said National League.
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  #46  
Old 06-12-2011, 04:16 PM
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Another vote for David Orr
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  #47  
Old 06-12-2011, 04:51 PM
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As I have always said Jack Morris is by far and away the player who should be in that is not. Baseball is about compeating and winning, Jack is a better pitcher than most who are in the HOF. He was the go to guy on every team he played on and brought championships to 3 different teams.His 1991 game 7 performance was one of the top 3 ever in the history of the game . The HOF is very political and many who are in should not be there and many who are not should be.
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  #48  
Old 06-12-2011, 05:47 PM
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I would go with Minoso (don't forget the dominance of the first half of his career in Cuban) and John Donaldson already mentioned.

I would add Alejandro Oms, Oliver Marcelle and Dick Lundy, probably.

From modern times, hard for me to overlook Tim Raines. Cannot understand why he does not get more support. (OK, maybe the cocaine and the fact that he played in Montreal...) The reality is that he had the unfortunate timing to be a comtemporary of Ricky Henderson which made him look not so hall of famish.
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  #49  
Old 06-13-2011, 05:33 AM
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I agree regarding Cecil Travis.
Important to recognize those whose baseball career was shorter because of being in the service and defending our country.

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  #50  
Old 06-13-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
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Ah yes you are right. I should have said National League.
Actually, at the year 1929, when Doyle played his last season, was Rogers Hornsby's last good hitting season. His numbers dropped significantly after that year, possibly because he became a player manager. (or not?) If you look at who had betters numbers when Doyle retired, than Hornsby clearly appears to be the better.

If you're going to go by best retired second baseman, fine. But If we take to time to look through the stats you can see pretty clearly that Hornsby had much better numbers. Numbers don't mean everything, but unless one of us saw or really knows about Hornsby and Doyle, we have to go by the numbers and that pretty much decides the best second baseman to ever play in the National League in 1929.
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