Card Improvment: Ethical? Yes or NO?

[botn]

Dan,

Very impressive investigation! Also quite amazed by the quality of the work performed on those cards. Scary time to be a collector if what you truly seek is original and authentic material.

Greg

[DICKTOWLE]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Dick- correct me if I am wrong, but on the memorabilia side of the board didn't you discuss you have a product that removes ink from baseballs, as well as one that removes creases from cards?

Barry, I can remove ink from baseballs- but I won't, this is my process, all that was ever intended was to remove a bad autograph- however as I said there is to "evil" out there, so why ??. I would be better to leave this alone, as far as my solvents for wrinkles, I have my chemistry from 16 years, nothing is sold, again if there is a crease with paper broken, the crease remains always. I never sold anything and never will. . My solvents are used for glue,tape,contact cement, indents, cards that are warped. NO CREASES thank you again Sir

[Rob D.]

I'm just glad I don't seek to acquire the "finest examples extant" of a card.

The sea of mediocrity in which I swim feels a bit more warm and soothing today.

That said, I still trust no one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DICKTOWLE

I DON'T DO INK PERIOD . -

HUH?
SCD: Do you use a chemical process?
Towle: I’ve got various chemicals. I’ve got about 13 that I’ve developed. We’ve just finished an ink process for a very prominent dealer down in Florida where we’ve developed the process to take fountain pen ink off of cards. They were actually graded by two very reputable grading companies. They both passed grading. We were actually able to extract the ink. We’re working on ballpoint pen right now. But the fountain pen ink came out and the cards were graded, which obviously adds huge dollars to a card.

[DICKTOWLE]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dick, what's the biggest grade bump you have attained for someone, at least as far as you know?

Peter, I really don't know, but if you have a T205 that a "dealer painted all the corners to cheat a customer the card would be "A". If the card were to grade with the integrety in place above a "A" with now chipping on the corners that is truly a blessing for a customer because that would be the real grade. Most of my customers are collectors just tring to remove junk. Thank you Peter

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nice example Dick but perhaps you should have offered this one instead.

I just completed a Mickey Mantle rookie for another prominent dealer down in Florida. It had terrible stains on the back and we got the stains off. He said the card would probably get a “lock 8.” But it wouldn’t get it with the stains on it. He’s as happy as a bullfrog.

[DICKTOWLE]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

HUH?
SCD: Do you use a chemical process?
Towle: I’ve got various chemicals. I’ve got about 13 that I’ve developed. We’ve just finished an ink process for a very prominent dealer down in Florida where we’ve developed the process to take fountain pen ink off of cards. They were actually graded by two very reputable grading companies. They both passed grading. We were actually able to extract the ink. We’re working on ballpoint pen right now. But the fountain pen ink came out and the cards were graded, which obviously adds huge dollars to a card.

.

Peter, thank you for the chance to respond just because I have a process, it does not mean I use this. I removed the fountian pen ink, however I decided I don't want to do ink, and I never did. The test was on this ink- it passed- The two cards that were done were test card- zero value- however again, my choice was not to do and I don't. thank you again

[barrysloate]

Dick- thanks for the response. Sorry if I misquoted you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So between October 7 2008 and today you changed your mind, eh?

[DICKTOWLE]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nice example Dick but perhaps you should have offered this one instead.

I just completed a Mickey Mantle rookie for another prominent dealer down in Florida. It had terrible stains on the back and we got the stains off. He said the card would probably get a “lock 8.” But it wouldn’t get it with the stains on it. He’s as happy as a bullfrog.

Peter, you are correct, however we never received back a answer, it was a 5 as I try to remember, removing the stains, still maybe a 5??, Also we found out later the gentleman had passed away in November . thank you sir

[DICKTOWLE]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So between October 7 2008 and today you changed your mind, eh?

Peter, no matter what I say it is never correct with you. I am sure you are a highly respected person in the industry, but you may want to twist words. God allows people to change there minds, like I said without my hand on a bible, I did not pursue this even after the commons came back graded, not today but Oct of 2008. Thank you again.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not twisting anything Dick just asking how you reconcile your statement here that you don't do ink period with your interview where you were touting the results of your ink removal.

[Rob D.]

"Stop the fight!"

[T206Collector]

Dick,

I hope you will continue to post regarding your process and practice. Given some collectors' concerns about what you do, you are likely to be met with some measure of venom on public internet chatboards. I hope that this does not cause you to stop the dialogue. It is important for us as a hobby to understand the full extent of what is really going on out there.

Thanks again for your posts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by botn

Dan,

Very impressive investigation! Also quite amazed by the quality of the work performed on those cards. Scary time to be a collector if what you truly seek is original and authentic material.

Greg

Aw shucks what's a little trimming and corner work among friends?

[botn]

According to VCP, the seller on the graded cards in Dan's investigative report is ebay id scottsusor.

[DICKTOWLE]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Dick,

I hope you will continue to post regarding your process and practice. Given some collectors' concerns about what you do, you are likely to be met with some measure of venom on public internet chatboards. I hope that this does not cause you to stop the dialogue. It is important for us as a hobby to understand the full extent of what is really going on out there.

Thanks again for your posts.

T 206 Thank you for the kind words, I have already received many emails and even a phone call at my home in support what I do. PAPER WRINKLES, GLUED IN CARDS, GLUE ON CARDS, WAX AND GUM STAINS, INDENTS, TAPE, JUST GARBAGE ON A CARD. THANK YOU ALL FOR THE GREAT SUPPORT.

[Rickyy]

If the improvements are made to a card without disclosure and submitted for grading and gets a higher grade than it should be in its original state (and without a qualifer), it makes all the legitimate non altered graded cards the same as altered non detected graded cards..so how does that make it ethical?


Ricky Yo

[barrysloate]

Dick- I say this with all due respect, but "paper wrinkle" is another term for "crease."

[bijoem]

I hate to single out this thread, because I think of this exchange with a bunch of other threads, but here goes......


Jerry Seinfeld: "What are we doing? ... What in God's name are we doing?"

Jason Alexander as George: "What."

Seinfeld: "What kind of lives are these? We're like children. We're not men."

Alexander: "No, we're not. We're not men."

Seinfeld: "We're pathetic, ya know that?"

Alexander: "Yeah, like I don't know that I'm pathetic."

[barrysloate]

Joe- you know you could have posted the same Seinfeld bit on the "America's Toughest Want List is Smoking Hot" thread and gotten a lot more mileage with it.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Joe- you know you could have posted the same Seinfeld bit on the "America's Toughest Want List is Smoking Hot" thread and gotten a lot more mileage with it.

I agree. There were so many times it could have been posted. And there are/were threads far more worthy of the bit.

Maybe it is a build up, or just the stifling heat, but this is when I was moved enough to post it.

[smokelessjoe]

I think what both Dan & Peter are trying to say is that if my son takes one on my T206s and scribbles on it, that is unethical (because it has been altered). Then if I take the T206 and send it off to Towle and he removes the scribble, now two unethical alterations have been committed on one card! This would be a horrific and spine chilling scenario, and would really put a damper on our hobby...

[barrysloate]

Joe- it is stifling. I'm sitting here without air conditioning.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Joe- it is stifling. I'm sitting here without air conditioning.

I can't breathe when I leave my house or office. How do you tolerate being indoors without air conditioning right now? Seriously. It is unhealthy.

[Rob D.]

Wasn't it determined that having air conditioning is every American's right?

I'm sure Lichtman is paying for someone's AC somewhere.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Wasn't it determined that having air conditioning is every American's right?

I'm sure Lichtman is paying for someone's AC somewhere.

You think there aren't studies that prove that people who have air conditioning live longer then peope who don't?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Joe- it is stifling. I'm sitting here without air conditioning.

It's been a strange Summer here in Nebraska...we got down in the 50s last night...I don't think it's hit 70 yet today....and we just came of the third coolest July on record. I'm going to have to wear a jacket to tonight's baseball game and I don't think I've ever done that in August.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I can't breathe when I leave my house or office. How do you tolerate being indoors without air conditioning right now? Seriously. It is unhealthy.

Absolutely a right! What we need is a Cash for Condensors program!

[barrysloate]

I have A/C in the living room but never turn it on...people who know me know my eccentric behavior.

[Rob D.]

When we were having trouble with our air conditioning a few weeks ago, instead of having it worked on, I met with a panel of government officials who counseled me about whether I even wanted to have it fixed. They made interesting points about whether it was worth continuing to have AC in our lives.

In the end, I decided the time had come to let it go. So now I'm sitting in front of a fan, sweating.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I have A/C in the living room but never turn it on...people who know me know my eccentric behavior.

People that know you know you are cheap, cheap, cheap. (Not that there's anything wrong with that) So am I. BTW, I would beg to differ on the definition of a crease. Many in the hobby, myself included, think a crease goes through to both sides whereas as a wrinkle is only on one side. It's semantics but I have seen this definition more than once and adhere to it myself. regards

[Oldtix]

A grateful nation expresses thanks for your sacrifice. We who enjoy the cooling breeze salute you.

I expect to see Soylent Green on the menu by Christmas.

[barrysloate]

Leon- I actually don't like A/C. I can't sleep with the windows closed and the noise it makes, I feel claustrophobic...and yes, the electric bill is higher too.

Edited to say there are light creases and heavy creases. Light ones are on the surface, heavy ones go through the paper. But when I wrote auction copy you can be sure I called a light crease a wrinkle.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dick confesses to altering cards, Dan Markel makes a shocking post proving trimmed cards are being slabbed, and no one cares so we are joking about the weather? Oh well.

[barrysloate]

Peter- in all fairness we had 85 posts; maybe 8 are about the weather (which by the way has cooled off nicely in NYC in the last couple of hours).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan Markel's post, in my opinion, is extremely significant, and he put a great deal of effort into it, yet there is no reaction at all. We are not talking about stain removal or even wrinkles now-- we are talking about slabbing TRIMMED cards.

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Peter- in all fairness we had 85 posts; maybe 8 are about the weather (which by the way has cooled off nicely in NYC in the last couple of hours).

Dan's post came in the AM and there have not been 85 posts since that time. However 85 would be a horrid turnout considering his revelation. Not that we did not know this was happening but to put forth definitive proof like this is impressive. Guess the weather in NYC is not the only thing that has cooled off.

Not Barry's fault for the OT posts on this thread. It is why this stuff will continue to happen and collectors will continue to add garbage to their collections, raw and graded. If those who collect lower grade material think this is not happening thus justifying their decisions to ignore what Dan has presented, guess again.

May not have happened on your T206 commons in 2 and 3 holders but maybe that T206 Cobb or Mathewson in similar grades have had some additional attention before you bought it. If that does not bother you, carry on.

[calvindog]

Dan M, great stuff. You made me a bit nauseous, though. I feel fairly convinced that most of my high grade cards have been played with.

[slidekellyslide]

Jim Crandell is starting to look like Nostradamus. Great work Dan M.