help! photo ID "proof" needed

[Bicem]

I have this Horner cabinet of Frank Dillon. I know it's Frank Dillon as it was sold with a number of different photos from his estate. I'm trying to get SGC to slab it and label it as Frank Dillon but they need proof that it's him. I've submitted pics of the other photos that were sold as well as the following comparison photos shown below, but it's still not quite enough . Not sure what else I can do to prove it's Frank Dillon. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

My cabinet...



comparison photos...

[ElCabron]

Well if those two aren't enough I'm not sure anything will be. Really not sure what more they're looking for.

-Ryan

[rhettyeakley]

I agree with Ryan, pretty straight forward with the id in this case--you can even see the areas of premature graying on his temples in all the shots!

Them saying this isn't enough after seeing some of their past mistakes makes one really scratch their head.

There are plenty of images of Dillon out there so I would just throw together as many as you can find and show them all of them.

-Rhett

[prewarsports]

How about telling SGC that Frank Dillon's family donated all of his items to the Helms Athletic Foundation in California and that the person you bought it from has been selling the items from that very public collection (Iron clad provenance and not just photo ID). That plus the obvious photo comparisons are WAY more than is usually out there for photo identification.

[3-2-count]

One more for you Jeff.

[Anthony S.]

The guy apparently spent his entire life with the exact same expression on his face.

[barrysloate]

The Brooklyn cabinet you posted matches Dillon's identical pose in the 1905 Spalding Guide. Unfortunately, there is not a corresponding one of him in a Detroit uniform.

[FrankWakefield]

I wish you well with it...

These aren't close up portraits, but maybe they'll help. Pop Dillon was quite a ballplayer. Thanks for posting that Horner Cabinet card of him. Wish more folks were aware of his impact on baseball.

[Jacklitsch]

Inagural inductee into the Pacific Coast League Hall of Fame.

Great Cab Jeff!!!

SGC

[bmarlowe1]

It’s hard to understand what value an authenticator brings to the hobby with respect to player identification when they can’t get one that is this easy. If they can’t get this one, what difference does it make if they say an image is or is not someone? – since they clearly don’t know how to do this, why would their opinion have any value? why pay them for a service for which they have absolutely no competence?

If they are depending on proof from the owner - what skill do they have in judging the proof?

Every feature of Jeff’s cabinet (below left) matches the known images of Dillon below center and right. If you want to compare the right ear to the left ear, the outer shape is virtually identical. All other features are the same. And as is seen in the uncropped image – he is in the right uniform from the right era.

[bmarlowe1]

Note the indentation in the right earlobes:

[Matt]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Them saying this isn't enough after seeing some of their past mistakes makes one really scratch their head.

Rhett - they tightened things up on the photo ID situation a little more than a year ago - I submitted something for ID 10 months ago and also was surprised they felt what I provided didn't meet the standard of proof. So, when looked at as a body of work, this is certainly not consistent with their previous IDs, but within their "new" system of standards, this is the norm.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Matt

Rhett - they tightened things up on the photo ID situation a little more than a year ago - I submitted something for ID 10 months ago and also was surprised they felt what I provided didn't meet the standard of proof. So, when looked at as a body of work, this is certainly not consistent with their previous IDs, but within their "new" system of standards, this is the norm.

So - what are their standards? I submit that they don't have any. How do you sell an authentication service for which you have no articulable standards?

[rhettyeakley]

Mark, I completely agree with you. It would be like someone sending in an autograph for evaluation and then also having to also provide the exemplars as well. I understand that in very rare instances w/in the autograph hobby there are no known examples of a signature. However, in this case with the Dillon photo there are plenty of images of Dillon to study to provide a positive match, isn't this what you are paying for w/ the service or is it just the slab that you are purchasing? Do they do any legwork themselves with this service or not?
-Rhett

[D. Bergin]

Is SGC a photo ID authenticator or a Card authenticator?

It sounds like they relied on their clients conclusions in the past............they got burnt because of it and have tightened things up.

Seems to me the only thing they really need to authenticate is if it's a real cabinet photo or not? Anything else should qualify for an additional service I would think?

[barrysloate]

If I were them I wouldn't do photo i.d. at all. It would be at best only a tiny part of their business, and would create so many problems. They would need to hire a separate expert whose only job was to identify and authenticate photographs, and no matter what verdict they came up with they would never achieve consensus on every image. The headaches would be greater than the rewards.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

So - what are their standards? I submit that they don't have any. How do you sell an authentication service for which you have no articulable standards?

That's a good question - maybe they will come on and answer.

[drc]

Looks as if he's wearing the same jersey as in the card.

Would it be acceptable for SGC to simply label it as an original Carl Horner photo without the identity of the player?

[prewarsports]

Good Call David

I think it is the same sitting just with and without his hat. If you look at how the bottons sit on both photos as well as how the point of the cloth at the top button is not tucked under the collar etc., I think it is not only a photo ID match but it could be one of those uniform matches they do in auctions to pinpoint a jersey to a certain year etc. I cant image a photo existing with more circumstantial evidence from 1903.

Rhys

[bmarlowe1]

There are about half a dozen folds and wrinkles that match.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by drc

Would it be acceptable for SGC to simply label it as an original Carl Horner photo without the identity of the player?

Not for me it wouldn't, a big part of the reason I want it slabbed is for easy player identification.

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all the input!!!

[Hankphenom]

Frank "Pop" Dillon was one of several minor league managers to scout Walter Johnson and reject him. On February 11, 1906, Dillon, manager of the L.A. Angels PCL team, went to see Johnson pitching for The Olinda Oil Wells semipro club against a team from Rivera. The Oil Wells won a 5-4 squeaker in which Johnson struck out 11 but also gave up 10 hits. After the game, Dillon was quoted as saying, "He won't do yet. He telegraphs everything he throws." Also on hand was Russ Hall, manager of the Seattle PCL team, and while Hall also turned Johnson down, he did sign two other members of the Olinda team. On November 7, 1907, Johnson got the chance to show Dillon firsthand what he had missed. With two months in the big leagues behind him now, Johnson pitched an exhibition game for the San Diego Pickwicks against Dillon's PCL champion Angels, striking out 16 Angels in a 1-0 victory for the Pickwicks. Frank Dillon was also Clark Griffith's cousin, another twist in the saga.
Hank Thomas

[Bicem]

just an update, it was graded and slabbed (SGC 50), this thread really helped... thanks again all!

[3-2-count]

With Dillon on the flip Jeff??

[Bicem]

yep... Frank "Pop" Dillon I believe!

[3-2-count]

Awesome Jeff!!!!

[benchod]

Beautiful cab Jeff

[Bicem]

Thanks again everyone!!!

[3-2-count]

Stunning!!!

[Jacklitsch]

Anyone have a "drool" smilie they can share?

[3-2-count]

Yes sir!!