Babe Ruth?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

This may be hard for you to believe, but it is possible for some people to be disappointed in a decision someone else makes without completely condemning them, calling them incompetant at every turn, ranting like a lunatic ad nauseum, conjuring countless inane analogies, turning every thread into a hate-filled diatribe, etc. etc.

Just sayin'

then again, maybe he is seeing the light.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

FWIW, I believe the signature is good, as well.

but chris williams thinks it is bogus and is disappointed in jimmy.

i'm torn.

[travrosty]

babe ruth autographs have been so mismanaged, so misauthenticated and so corrupted, with exemplar files that contain who knows what.

it's went around the bend, past the point of no return.

Only purging exemplar files and starting over with documented, or properly dated, or notarized, witnessed signatures of babe ruth from the beginning to the end can it hope to get back on track.

he signed the vast bulk of his signatures over just 20 years and its all screwed up.

some athletes have signed over 40, 50, 60 or 70 years and it's not screwed up like this. but a 20 year span he has dozens upon dozens upon dozens of different styles, slants, spacings, and sizes? why? we know why.

If they can authenticate it they can prove it. they don't so what are they hiding?

show us why this is good, or bad? we can do it for boxing, why can't they do it for baseball?

[Big Dave]

To much money to be made, and has been made, by friends and friends of friends.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

Here is a listing of other Tigers ticket stubs. You can see there are a couple of stamp-dated 1934 Tigers ticket stubs in this lot.

Hi Josh,
Thanks for posting your responses!

Very interesting...
I'm curious where the photo of all the tickets came from?
I see that it says eBay on the screen shot, but I'm intrigued how this image shows a ticket issued only one day apart (wow!) from the alleged Ruth 700 HR ticket. That's an amazing coincidence! They obviously are stamped identically, at the same angle, yet the Emergency Tickets are "A" tickets one day, and "Z" the following day- in July, no less (half way through the season)!

FWIW, about 22,000 were in attendance for Ruth's 700th HR. Did this require that the Tigers issue emergency tickets? I looked at all the surrounding games at DET on the 1934 schedule and they all appear to have similar attendance, especially with the Yankees in town. I saw attendances ranging from 20,000-26,000 during this homestand. I would also note that at least 4 games at DET prior to the NY series that featured Ruth's HR drew at least as many fans. One of the games drew 30,000 fans and the game on July 4th drew 40,000 fans for a twinbill. Would Ruth's 700th HR be Emergency ticket "Z" if it was at a minimum the 6th high attended game in DET in 1934?
I don't know, and I'm quite certain that no one knows for sure. It just seems odd to me, FWIW...

I certainly can be wrong, but I stand by my assertion that I have not seen other earlier vintage Tigers tickets stamped in this fashion prior to the screen shot that you posted.

Please note that I am not attempting to make any comments about the authenticity of the Babe Ruth signature on the ticket as this is admittedly not my expertise.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

I'm curious where the photo of all the tickets came from?

Scott,
They were sold on eBay in March 2009 for $1482 for a lot of 90 1930's Detroit Tigers tickets (seems like a pretty good deal for any Tigers fan). The photo is from Worthpoint, a subscription website that indexes old eBay listings. Here's the rest of the description, just so nobody jumps to the conclusion that this Ruth ticket was in the lot.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Scott,
They were sold on eBay in March 2009 for $1482 for a lot of 90 1930's Detroit Tigers tickets (seems like a pretty good deal for any Tigers fan). The photo is from Worthpoint, a subscription website that indexes old eBay listings. Here's the rest of the description, just so nobody jumps to the conclusion that this Ruth ticket was in the lot.

Hi Lance,
Thanks for posting the description. I would have to agree with you that the buyer got an excellent deal on this vintage Tigers ticket lot. $15 a ticket- very nice!

Certainly this provides some support to the theory that the stamped Emergency Ticket could be an actual ticket from the game played on 7/13/34, Babe Ruth's 700th HR.

Looking at this from only the ticket portion of the equation, as a baseball ticket collector, I am still bothered by three things:

Would the game played on 7/13/34 (Ruth 700th HR) have been the 1st game in the Detroit Tiger's 1934 home schedule to have required the issuance of an Emergency Ticket? I know that I am repeating a portion of my previous post here, but we know that very few games in 1934 have "high" reported attendance according to retrosheet.org.

Of the home games that did have reported attendance, the Ruth 700 HR game was the 6th game with enough attendance to require an Emergency ticket. Wouldn't it make plausible sense that the 1st big attendance game would be the Emergency "A" ticket and not the 5th game?
I don't know...

Secondly, does it make plausible sense that the next game in the home schedule to require an emergency ticket (the 6th reported high attendance game in the DET home schedule) would be Emergency Ticket Z? That's interesting (odd). Extremely random, but possible....

Thirdly, both sets of Emergency tickets appear to be stamped by precisely the same hand. The same stamp appears to be used, as well as the same angle of stamp applied, in the same location on the ticket. No randomness to this at all, FWIW.

All this, in of itself, does not prove or disprove that this ticket is legit. Unless we were a fly on the ticket office wall, we will never know.

Now, back to the real question: does the Babe Ruth signature hold up as far as being a legitimate example of his 1930's signature? I will leave this up to the experts to figure out. I have no horse in this race...

For sure, this is an interesting puzzle to ponder over....

[thetruthisoutthere]

I have sent Josh a message requesting the contact info of the consignor.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

James and all,
Interesting...

FWIW, I would not trust this to be a real Ruth 700th HR ticket.

I personally have not seen vintage Tigers tickets that have been stamped with a date. In fact, as a baseball ticket collector of over 40 years, I will tell you that I do not recall EVER seeing a Tigers stamped date ticket prior to 1969. I have, however, seen lots of emergency tickets like the one featured in this auction with designations like Game X, Game K, etc.

I do recall seeing a genuine printed date ticket to Ruth's 700th HR. At least one exists in the hobby. As I recall it has an uneven tear at the perforation, almost appearing to have a "fang" shaped tear....

+1 and more......

[hugginsandscott]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I have sent Josh a message requesting the contact info of the consignor.

I have responded to your email with the consignors name and contact phone number.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

I have responded to your email with the consignors name and contact phone number.

WHOA! May I ask why you'd give out a consignor's name and number? If I'm the consignor, I'd want YOU to reach out to me, not to get a call from someone else, no matter who he is!

Ken

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

WHOA! May I ask why you'd give out a consignor's name and number? If I'm the consignor, I'd want YOU to reach out to me, not to get a call from someone else, no matter who he is!

Ken

+!

Couldn't agree more. If you believe that Chris' expertise trumps that of the expert you've employed, then hire Chris. 'Till then, he's no more entitled to consignor information than any stranger on the street.

[thecatspajamas]

Guys, he's not just handing consignor contact info out willy nilly. As he said, the consignor offered to speak to anyone who wants more details. Whether anyone else thinks opening that door is a bad idea is irrelevent if the consignor made the offer. And I'm sure that Josh has the good sense not to give his info to certain troublemaking bloggers who would misuse the info to hound the consignor to death.

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

I also personally spoke to the consignor again today, just to verify the facts of the story. The consignor is NOT in our hobby and is not a collector of sports memorabilia - just a baseball fan who lived near this lady and prior to her passing, she gave it to him. He has also offered to speak to anyone who would like any more details of the story. If you would like his name and number, email me privately, and I will get you the contact information.

[David Atkatz]

That's different.

Never mind.

[hugginsandscott]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Guys, he's not just handing consignor contact info out willy nilly. As he said, the consignor offered to speak to anyone who wants more details. Whether anyone else thinks opening that door is a bad idea is irrelevent if the consignor made the offer. And I'm sure that Josh has the good sense not to give his info to certain troublemaking bloggers who would misuse the info to hound the consignor to death.

EXACTLY! C'mon guys - you don't really think I'd just give out a consignor's name without consent and lengthy conversations regarding this situation, do you?
The consignor told me that he would be more than willing to relay the back story of this ticket to anyone who wanted to know what it was. I relayed it in the description and on this board, but for some reason, that didn't seem to be enough information for Christopher to make him feel ok about this piece, so he asked for the contact information and I obliged (again, with the consignor's consent).

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

EXACTLY! C'mon guys - you don't really think I'd just give out a consignor's name without consent and lengthy conversations regarding this situation, do you?
The consignor told me that he would be more than willing to relay the back story of this ticket to anyone who wanted to know what it was. I relayed it in the description and on this board, but for some reason, that didn't seem to be enough information for Christopher to make him feel ok about this piece, so he asked for the contact information and I obliged (again, with the consignor's consent).

Why do we need Christopher to feel okay about this piece?

[hugginsandscott]

great question Travis! We don't ... and since he isn't even registered to bid with us, I felt I was going way above and beyond what I needed to do.
I pride myself on making sure we are one of the most "customer friendly" auction companies out there, so if I can do a little bit to make anyone who comes into a public forum and questions our items, I don't mind answering them and trying to make them feel comfortable with the items we run.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here's another Babe Ruth. It is a forgery.


BabeH-100.jpg



It was penned by the same person who penned the "Ruth" on the ticket up for auction on Huggins & Scott.

The person who penned both of those Babe Ruth sigs (this one and the one on the ticket) resides in Michigan.

[gnaz01]

I guess we will never know for certain. What I can tell you is I signed my name 50+ times today at work (typical Friday's in my world) and I assure you the following:

1. My signature was a lot clearer in the AM then when I signed the last
2. There were no 2 that looked exact (similar but not exact)

Just my .02 cents ( no change required )

Greg

[David Atkatz]

Can we see the whole piece, Chris--inscription, too?

[David Atkatz]

Still waiting, Chris.

[slidekellyslide]

I don't understand the secrecy and the game playing on this board. Post what you know, ALL of what you know, and maybe some of these forgers will get out of the game. Instead it's all shrouded in secrecy and the scammers continue to scam. And if you can't post what you think you know because you're not 100% sure then don't post any of it.

[David Atkatz]

Oh, Chris is 100% sure, Dan. He's always 100% sure.

But he will never post more than he himself wants to--he is the high priest, after all. His voice is the word of God. Compared with that what matters the questioning of mere gnats?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I don't understand the secrecy and the game playing on this board. Post what you know, ALL of what you know, and maybe some of these forgers will get out of the game. Instead it's all shrouded in secrecy and the scammers continue to scam. And if you can't post what you think you know because you're not 100% sure then don't post any of it.

i agree, it's always cloak and dagger. It passed 2 separate authentication services that collectors use. spence, and root, why not call up spence, chris, call up root, what's the problem? root is right on this board.

[Big Dave]

Yep....Chris is ridiculous to many times with his "Mystery Man" persona. If you know it, then show it....otherwise you just blow it.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Oh, Chris is 100% sure, Dan. He's always 100% sure.

But he will never post more than he himself wants to--he is the high priest, after all. His voice is the word of God. Compared with that what matters the questioning of mere gnats?

The snide remarks will stop now......

[jgmp123]

Chris,

There are several people here that are interested in that ticket stub and any information you can provide would be helpful to the hobby. If you could share the full scan and any additional information, it would be appreciated...for instance, forger from Michigan's name, if consigner is from Michigan, etc.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Chris,

There are several people here that are interested in that ticket stub and any information you can provide would be helpful to the hobby. If you could share the full scan and any additional information, it would be appreciated...for instance, forger from Michigan's name, if consigner is from Michigan, etc.

Tell me, James, how is that going to help the "several people here that are interested in that ticket stub?"

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

The snide remarks will stop now......

"The great and powerful Oz has spoken!"

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Tell me, James, how is that going to help the "several people here that are interested in that ticket stub?"

How is anything you have posted so far going to help those SAME people...ask yourself that question. Better yet, how is anything you have ever posted going to help...you fish for people rather than teaching people to fish. Knowledge is power my friend and if it can't be shared, then what importance does it have.

[jgmp123]

Chris,

I think it was your good friend Kevin Nielson who introduced the world to a skilled forger by the name of Greg Marino...what if he had not written Operation Bullpen and the FBI would have kept quiet the names of those involved...if you have information that will help improve the hobby, then why keep it a secret....

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

How is anything you have posted so far going to help those SAME people...ask yourself that question. Better yet, how is anything you have ever posted going to help...you fish for people rather than teaching people to fish. Knowledge is power my friend and if it can't be shared, then what importance does it have.

Do you really think it's as easy and simple as that, James?

[jgmp123]

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't...but, you has always stood by JSA and he evidently got this wrong, so any information would be appreciated. If you can't share, then just refrain from putting it out there.

Your name is "thetruthisoutthere"...if it is, then share...If not, then change your name to "thetruthisouttherebutitsmineallmine"

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't...but, you has always stood by JSA and he evidently got this wrong, so any information would be appreciated. If you can't share, then just refrain from putting it out there.

Your name is "thetruthisoutthere"...if it is, then share...If not, then change your name to "thetruthisouttherebutitsmineallmine"

James, I have shared a ton of information with the hobby over the last decade or so.

I have done so at risk to myself because it is worth it. I have been physically threatened a few times. One was threatening enough that I had to document it with my local police department in case something happened to me.

Some information I will never share. A lot of of the information I acquire is through my own efforts. Some of it is entrusted to me.

James, have you ever thought about taking the time, effort and expense to do what I do?

If you ever do, then you will know exactly what I mean.

It isn't as easy as you say it is.

[thetruthisoutthere]

And I will repeat this; I had someone here relay a message of concern to Huggins & Scott about the Babe Ruth Signed Ticket auction a week before I posted this.

I was hoping that Huggins & Scott would have taken it down and at the least, had it re-examined.

We'll just have to see how this all plays out.

[travrosty]

they did have it re-examined by spence and he said it was good, why would they take it down because you said so with no explanation just "i said so"

it might be bad, it might be good, but you just keep the info to yourself, that's ridiculous. why post it in the first place? just to be coy? no one cares anymore if everything is james bond ejector seat theatrics.

when we show boxing, we can explain and will explain each psa or jsa screwup to anyones satisfaction. why, how and in detail just what is wrong with the signature, why can't you do that? do you know ruth, if so, share!!

[ss]

Chris, what you do is fantastic and appreciated. But we are all hungry for as much information we can get. To me the Ruth sig looks good, but if you say no, then I believe you. But tell us why if you can, or at least as much as you can.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by ss

Chris, what you do is fantastic and appreciated. But we are all hungry for as much information we can get. To me the Ruth sig looks good, but if you say no, then I believe you. But tell us why if you can, or at least as much as you can.

+1

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by ss

Chris, what you do is fantastic and appreciated. But we are all hungry for as much information we can get. To me the Ruth sig looks good, but if you say no, then I believe you. But tell us why if you can, or at least as much as you can.

I agree 100%

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by travrosty

they did have it re-examined by spence and he said it was good, why would they take it down because you said so with no explanation just "i said so"

it might be bad, it might be good, but you just keep the info to yourself, that's ridiculous. why post it in the first place? just to be coy? no one cares anymore if everything is james bond ejector seat theatrics.

when we show boxing, we can explain and will explain each psa or jsa screwup to anyones satisfaction. why, how and in detail just what is wrong with the signature, why can't you do that? do you know ruth, if so, share!!

+100.

Also, as long as you do your man-behind-the-curtain act, don't whine about snide comments. You are asking for them.

[chaddurbin]

chris don't have to tell us, but he can pass what he knows onto huggins&scott and let them make the determination. he said a member here expressed concern a week before the auction started, so maybe we got a stalemate of differing opinions.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

chris don't have to tell us, but he can pass what he knows onto huggins&scott and let them make the determination. he said a member here expressed concern a week before the auction started, so maybe we got a stalemate of differing opinions.

That's not what I wrote.

I wrote that I had a member here on Net54 relay a message to Huggins & Scott about my concern about the Babe Ruth Signed Ticket.

[Runscott]

Each person who complains and begs for more information, is just feeding the drama - that is all this is about.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

James, I have shared a ton of information with the hobby over the last decade or so.

I have done so at risk to myself because it is worth it. I have been physically threatened a few times. One was threatening enough that I had to document it with my local police department in case something happened to me.

Some information I will never share. A lot of of the information I acquire is through my own efforts. Some of it is entrusted to me.

James, have you ever thought about taking the time, effort and expense to do what I do?

If you ever do, then you will know exactly what I mean.

It isn't as easy as you say it is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...

How difficult is it to post the entire Ruth piece, inscription, and all?

[CW]

Originally Posted by travrosty

they did have it re-examined by spence and he said it was good, why would they take it down because you said so with no explanation just "i said so"

it might be bad, it might be good, but you just keep the info to yourself, that's ridiculous. why post it in the first place? just to be coy? no one cares anymore if everything is james bond ejector seat theatrics.

when we show boxing, we can explain and will explain each psa or jsa screwup to anyones satisfaction. why, how and in detail just what is wrong with the signature, why can't you do that? do you know ruth, if so, share!!

OK, I must've entered bizarro world today because I am reading a Travis post that is lucid, makes 100% sense, and I completely agree with it.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Chris,

I think it was your good friend Kevin Nielson who introduced the world to a skilled forger by the name of Greg Marino...what if he had not written Operation Bullpen and the FBI would have kept quiet the names of those involved...if you have information that will help improve the hobby, then why keep it a secret....

Are you serious, James?

With all respect to Kevin Nelson, the "Operation Bullpen" participants were all interviewed and discussing Greg Marino years before the book "Operation Bullpen" came out.

There were interviews in the Sweetspot News, SCD and other publications well before Kevin's book.

There was also the HBO Special (my good friends Shelly, Rich and I were participants) that aired in Jan. 2006.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Are you serious, James?

With all respect to Kevin Nelson, the "Operation Bullpen" participants were all interviewed and discussing Greg Marino years before the book "Operation Bullpen" came out.

There were interviews in the Sweetspot News, SCD and other publications well before Kevin's book.

There was also the HBO Special (my good friends Shelly, Rich and I were participants) that aired in Jan. 2006.

Well Operation Bullpen is where I first heard the name Greg Marino and that is what led me to the HBO special, etc. I am 31 years old and have to feel that most my age are probably in that same boat. All that aside, you get my point. These are autographs, not a cure for cancer or war secrets.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by CW

OK, I must've entered bizarro world today because I am reading a Travis post that is lucid, makes 100% sense, and I completely agree with it.

What, and remove all of the drama we've come to expect. What do you wan,t a boring hobby?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Well Operation Bullpen is where I first heard the name Greg Marino and that is what led me to the HBO special, etc. I am 31 years old and have to feel that most my age are probably in that same boat. All that aside, you get my point. These are autographs, not a cure for cancer or war secrets.

Ask myself or Richard how serious the forgers are about their business.

Richard has been sued twice and I've been threatened hundreds of times over the past decade.

You have no idea, James. You don't have a clue.

Did you read that personal attack directed at me from those pathetic cowards over at ANL!!!

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Ask myself or Richard how serious the forgers are about their business.

Richard has been sued twice and I've been threatened hundreds of times over the past decade.

You have no idea, James. You don't have a clue.

Did you read that personal attack directed at me from those pathetic cowards over at ANL!!!

I read it and I understand how tough it must be to take down forgers, but at the same time...why bring up such vague details that YOU KNOW people are going to want to learn more about....why dangle the carrot?