Faith in 'Upstream' Authenticators?

[clydepepper]

I have a whole bunch of 'Topps Certified' etc. and PSA/DNA autographed cards figuring that those sources are legit and certainly know more than me.

I've never taken the time and effort to go to Card Shows and stand in line to be sure whatever I got was the 'real deal'.

Opinions?

[Polarboy]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I have a whole bunch of 'Topps Certified' etc. and PSA/DNA autographed cards figuring that those sources are legit and certainly know more than me.

I've never taken the time and effort to go to Card Shows and stand in line to be sure whatever I got was the 'real deal'.

Opinions?

If it's already authenticated by a reputable source, (for me Topps, Beckett, JSA, and PSA) then I just have faith they know what they're doing.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I have a whole bunch of 'Topps Certified' etc. and PSA/DNA autographed cards figuring that those sources are legit and certainly know more than me.

I've never taken the time and effort to go to Card Shows and stand in line to be sure whatever I got was the 'real deal'.

Opinions?

I would say 95% of the cards labeled with Topps Certified auto and 70% of the PSA/DNA (or JSA or others) are actually signed by the pictured player.

On the original manufacturer, you still have dozens of people who have either had family members or agents sign for them, or use autopen. Then you also have a small fraction of counterfeit cards that are then forged autos, or cards that were backdoored from Topps and then forged.

PSA/DNA, JSA, BAS, and SGC when they were independently certifying, make large shares of mistakes or mis-identifications. I've even seen printed signatures authenticated as hand-signed, as well as Sharpie autos on cards where the player died before the Sharpie was invented. This is what led to the downfall of SGC authentication: the T206 scandal where they slabbed 12 T206 cards which were purchased within the previous 2 years and signed with Sharpie.

[bowmanred]

Regarding the T206 scandal it wasn't at all because they were signed in sharpie; in fact, most were ballpoint sigs. Looking quickly over the original Net54 thread, the only ones signed in Sharpie are the Rube Marquard (d.80) and maybe one of the Larry Doyle (d.74) cards. Both died well after the felt-tip pen was introduced. The photo-matching of the forged cards to scans of them in their unsigned state was what got them.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I've even seen printed signatures authenticated as hand-signed

I had to deal with this once on a card I won at auction with a LOA on a preprint; no one would believe me until I showed them another example.

[homerunhitter]

In this forum (and in other collecting sites too) there are a ton of posts asking “need help with this autograph” “is this autograph real” and “your opinion on this autograph?” with Topps certified autographs, I never have to ask these questions!

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

In this forum (and in other collecting sites too) there are a ton of posts asking “need help with this autograph” “is this autograph real” and “your opinion on this autograph?” with Topps certified autographs, I never have to ask these questions!

Read post #3. Not all Topps Certified Autos are authentic either. Scammers abound in this industry.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Read post #3. Not all Topps Certified Autos are authentic either. Scammers abound in this industry.

I read it before posting. I still stand true to my comment because a Topps certified autograph is more likely to be real that one certified by PSA , Beckett, JSS etc. yes, there are some fake Topps certified cards circulating in our hobby but I feel it’s a really really low percent compared to fakes that are currently in slabs. Just my 2 cents. I could be wrong! But I feel better peace of mind with a Topps certified vs a slabbed auto.

[bowmanred]

There was a Topps base card with a forged autograph on what is presumably a fake Certified Autograph sticker available on ebay a few weeks back. People were bidding it up like crazy but Mays didn't even sign for that set lol. For some reason forgers LOVE Willie Mays and go to crazy extents to make convincing fakes. Usually they content themselves with faking the signature but with Mays they go to the trouble of forging cards and even the foil stamps that Topps used on the early certified autograph cards.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by bowmanred

There was a Topps base card with a forged autograph on what is presumably a fake Certified Autograph sticker available on ebay a few weeks back. People were bidding it up like crazy but Mays didn't even sign for that set lol. For some reason forgers LOVE Willie Mays and go to crazy extents to make convincing fakes. Usually they content themselves with faking the signature but with Mays they go to the trouble of forging cards and even the foil stamps that Topps used on the early certified autograph cards.

They've done that on a few players, I believe Bryce Harper and Derek Jeter as well.

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1600466

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1600831

[Polarboy]

Originally Posted by bowmanred

There was a Topps base card with a forged autograph on what is presumably a fake Certified Autograph sticker available on ebay a few weeks back. People were bidding it up like crazy but Mays didn't even sign for that set lol. For some reason forgers LOVE Willie Mays and go to crazy extents to make convincing fakes. Usually they content themselves with faking the signature but with Mays they go to the trouble of forging cards and even the foil stamps that Topps used on the early certified autograph cards.

I saw that one, went for more than what I bought my JSA certified mays for LOL!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I would say 70% of the PSA/DNA (or JSA or others) are actually signed by the pictured player. On the original manufacturer, you still have dozens of people who have either had family members or agents sign for them, or use autopen. PSA/DNA, JSA, BAS, and SGC when they were independently certifying, make large shares of mistakes or mis-identifications.

Where did you pull this out of, Mr. expert? I'll tell you where--you pulled it all out of your butt, that's where. Let's see your proof, or even some evidence to show you might be right. And sorry, isolated examples here and there don't cut it, they actually are just the exceptions to prove the rule that 99+% of the time, the TPAs know what they're doing and get it right. As to the big scandal, OMG, SGC passed 12 bad T206s and it killed them, to which I say BFD, 12 out of how many thousands and thousands they and the others got right. Oh, gosh, they're not perfect, the sky is falling, and I guess you've never made mistakes on YOUR job. For all this trolling, assuming you are an actual collector, do you really want to go back to the wild west days pre-TPAs? I didn't think so, and neither do all the real collectors who rely on them when their hard-earned cash is at stake and rightly so. Money talks, bullshit walks, and it's time for you to take a hike.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I had to deal with this once on a card I won at auction with a LOA on a preprint; no one would believe me until I showed them another example.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...age-1826475379


Happens. Clearly a pre-print.

[jad22]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20506097507...Bk9SR-jf1NvvZA

Pre-print Sharman.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Where did you pull this out of, Mr. expert? I'll tell you where--you pulled it all out of your butt, that's where. Let's see your proof, or even some evidence to show you might be right. And sorry, isolated examples here and there don't cut it, they actually are just the exceptions to prove the rule that 99+% of the time, the TPAs know what they're doing and get it right. As to the big scandal, OMG, SGC passed 12 bad T206s and it killed them, to which I say BFD, 12 out of how many thousands and thousands they and the others got right. Oh, gosh, they're not perfect, the sky is falling, and I guess you've never made mistakes on YOUR job. For all this trolling, assuming you are an actual collector, do you really want to go back to the wild west days pre-TPAs? I didn't think so, and neither do all the real collectors who rely on them when their hard-earned cash is at stake and rightly so. Money talks, bullshit walks, and it's time for you to take a hike.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showpo...1&postcount=49 That's from 3 years ago. Add Lionel Messi to the list. Were the Luka's signed by his mom? Still up for debate, but it looks like he's changed his signature to match since then.

Add the counterfeit Harper, Mays, Manning, etc., cards that both the card and autograph are real, with fake stamps that have also been slabbed as both the card and auto authentic.

I actually still use PSA/DNA for autograph authentication, but mainly on sigs I know are good, since I bought them directly from the sketch artist themselves. I want them to be honest about their accuracy, and refund people when they get duped.

My job is to protect servicemembers when they're flying in their combat aircraft. I advocate for more resources on the regular to allow my teams to do a better job of protecting them from incoming missiles. Not sure how much that has to do with whether or not PSA or JSA can identify counterfeit autographs or not.

Many of the companies allow you to get a "witnessed" auto authentication just by providing a copy of the purchase ticket from the same show they're sitting at down the hall. Are those autos that are given to them all signed by the autograph signer at the show? Most are, but some are pocketed and used to pass off fakes, then send in the real autos paid for at a later time to get certed. Does this "witnessed" actually mean anything? It seems like you'd rather shut down the conversation than have an actual debate.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.net54baseball.com/showpo...1&postcount=49 That's from 3 years ago. Add Lionel Messi to the list. Were the Luka's signed by his mom? Still up for debate, but it looks like he's changed his signature to match since then.
Add the counterfeit Harper, Mays, Manning, etc., cards that both the card and autograph are real, with fake stamps that have also been slabbed as both the card and auto authentic. I actually still use PSA/DNA for autograph authentication, but mainly on sigs I know are good, since I bought them directly from the sketch artist themselves. I want them to be honest about their accuracy, and refund people when they get duped. My job is to protect servicemembers when they're flying in their combat aircraft. I advocate for more resources on the regular to allow my teams to do a better job of protecting them from incoming missiles. Not sure how much that has to do with whether or not PSA or JSA can identify counterfeit autographs or not.
Many of the companies allow you to get a "witnessed" auto authentication just by providing a copy of the purchase ticket from the same show they're sitting at down the hall. Are those autos that are given to them all signed by the autograph signer at the show? Most are, but some are pocketed and used to pass off fakes, then send in the real autos paid for at a later time to get certed. Does this "witnessed" actually mean anything? It seems like you'd rather shut down the conversation than have an actual debate.

No, all I did was ask you to provide proof or some actual evidence that your outrageous assertion that 30% or "large shares" (whatever that means) of certs by PSA/DNA, JSA, BAS, and SGC are mistakes or mis-identifications" is anywhere near the truth. What I got instead were more isolated examples that, to me, prove the rule of how valuable the services rendered by these companies are, along with your claim of how valuable YOU are to our combat pilots, which of course is to be commended if true. I just don't think anyone trying to throw autograph or card collecting back to the bad old days of widespread fraud with no checks or recourse is doing anybody a favor, let along "protecting" them. By all means hold their feet to the fire on all accounts (if they really do accept a show ticket as proof of an autograph, that's ridiculous, for example). Of course they're not perfect, is your auto mechanic? But I reiterate that the marketplace has long since made its overwhelming conclusion as to the value of their place in the scheme of things and willingness to pay handsomely for it. If you really think they're as bad as you claim, you could protect collectors and make a fortune for yourself at the same time by starting a TPA that narrows the error rate from your purported 30% to, say, 10%. You will be a hero for all time to the collecting community and its first inductee into the hobby Hall of Fame. You might even get a statue somewhere down the line.

[swarmee]

Got it; there isn't enough available evidence that would be good for you to believe me. And there is already enough for me not to believe you and your 99% range.

My overall point is valid: don't have blind trust in either 3rd party authenticators, or even cards provided by the companies or claiming to come from companies.

I'll leave it at that. Have a nice rest of your weekend.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Got it; there isn't enough available evidence that would be good for you to believe me. And there is already enough for me not to believe you and your 99% range. My overall point is valid: don't have blind trust in either 3rd party authenticators, or even cards provided by the companies or claiming to come from companies. I'll leave it at that. Have a nice rest of your weekend.

Sounds good. Like you, I'm not one to go in for blind trust in much of anything, but we all depend on the pros in many aspects of our lives, and this is one for which I'm glad to have the option. Happy Holidays to you and yours! Hank

[clydepepper]

I apologize to my Friends Hank and John for causing such a stir.

In spite of that, this thread accomplished what I was looking for...provided me reassurance that the TPAs I've been going with are indeed, for the vast majority of times, legit.

Great thanks to all who shared.

My collection of autographed cards is now more than 750 strong (about 30 are not 'certified').

but I'm not an addict- can stop any day- probably; maybe.