Factory certified autograph question

[homerunhitter]

Hey guys,
in regards to when it comes to HOF factory certified autographs, such as those from Topps, Bowman, Upper Deck, etc pack pulled (not ones that I actually pulled from packs myself, but bought on ebay) those that say topps certified autograph issue stamped on them for example.

Are they pretty much a safe bet to be authentic? I ask because I am at a crossroads with my collection, looking to go a different collecting route after reading on these boards that there are some reason issues in the hobby in regards to "factory certified" autographs not being truly authentic, but fakes being produced by scammers, HOF autographs such as willie mays, sandy koufax, derek jeter and albert pujols look very real but are being told they are fake (theres a thread on here somewhere with the details)

Im not looking for the generic input always seemed to be given on this board as "do you homework" i get that,i understand that..... but im talking autographs that are so good, so authentic looking, that 99.9% of collectors think they are real, but indeed they are not. due to the high quality printing done currently by forgers.


Im looking more for your individual thoughts and opinions on HOF factory certified autographs (not just the usual do your homework first, know your autographs responses!)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and opinions.

[mrmopar]

As you noted, there have been some common examples of forged copies of some of these cards discussed online, and even mistakes that happened in identifying or assembling these cards, so anything seems to be possible to create a fake "certified" card.

Generally speaking though, I believe it is assumed that most of the certified cards are legit. Some of the cards were signed in person, witnessed by a rep from the issuing company, while others appear to be mailed off and signed under the honor system.

I guess we can't truly know for sure on any card unless we view it being signed ourselves. Short of that, pulling a card from a fresh sealed untampered pack is the next best thing usually.

[homerunhitter]

Thanks Curt! I appreciate your thoughts on this subject. For me, one of my concerns is if you buy it off eBay (meaning the buyer doesn’t actually pull it from a pack themselves) how do we know it was actually pulled from a pack or it’s one of the certified autograph fakes floating around our hobby? Thanks

[mrmopar]

I admit that this aspect is scary. Reading the online boards and getting to know the signs is probably your best defense.

I have bought a few unsigned versions of cards that should have been signed. That right there is scary, considering how many more copies are out there that could land in forgers hands instead of a collector like myself who just wanted it for the oddity.

[theshleps]

I got fooled a number of times because I assume they were good and did not take the time to study the autograph which for the majority looked bad. They were all "topps originals"

[todeen]

I think if you have questions about signed cards you may feel are questionable, take a picture and post them. That would probably be the most help to board members.

I think what's most problematic is that Topps and UD, etc, haven't databased their cards well. You can't go somewhere and guarantee that the auto card you have matches the one they issued.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[thetruthisoutthere]

I have posted dozens of blogs on the various forged/counterfeit "Topps" and "Upper Deck" cards.

[mrmopar]

I have questioned a few certified cards lately, mainly because of these stories I have seen posted about forgeries. I appreciate the info, but MOST of the forgeries discussed are items outside of my typical spending range anyway. Jeter, Mantle, Williams, DiMaggio, etc. It is very possible, maybe likely, that some of the better stuff I got in the early ebay days could be fake. I have not tried to buy any bigger name, expensive uncertified autographs in many years now. That would be guys like DiMaggio, Williams, Mantle, Wilt Chamberlain, etc. Most I got before the players died, which is not a foolproof factor, but the forgeries certainly tend to increase when the supply dries up completely.

Two certified cards I recently took a leap of faith on were cheap enough to not feel too terrible if they turned out wrong. I don't want to imply that I don't mind buying fakes if they are cheap enough. I just felt that these two were likely real and the risk low (but there), but I was not 100% sure. I posted one and never got a conclusive answer. The other I just went ahead and bought w/o other's feedback.

One was a Frank Robinson buyback, the other a Juan Marichal buyback. Both Topps.

[bigfanNY]

I know you said very specifically not to say generically "Do your Homework" So how about I suggest the type of homework you should do based on how a number of cards that Chris and other members here and on other collectors boards "found out" that Certified Autographed cards were first being counterfeit and then Forged signatures were being applied.
I put together a display of Certified Autographed Modern 500 HR Hitters a few years ago and I routinely buy and sell Certified autographed cards from Topps, Donruss, Upper Deck, etc. So if I am considering a card one of the first things I do is look at previous sales in ebay. I am looking to guage current price and to see uf a large number of the card has recently come to market and if one or a small group of sellers is selling them. Because that is a RED FLAG!!. I then compare older sales to current ones to see if the cards and the signatures match up. I will also look at other cards of that same player to see if the Auto's match up or if there is a glut of any of their certified autographed cards. And understand this process works for Autographs of all sports. Because fakes have been created in All Sports. I might also do a quick google search on the card to see if anybody has posted any red flags. And last I would post a picture of the card here and ask for help if I still needed it.
Hope this helps
Jonathan

[JRS123490]

I think the Archives series (which I believe you're referring to) is a safe bet. So far from the last few years, I have not seen any that I would say are forged. I have seen many, many fake Mays, Pujols etc...where the forger will peel an older Topps hologram off the back of a cheaper card, and place it on a forged card and put it into a clip case with a sticker sealing it to make it look like an authentic buyback. Also, Topps claims that they have witnesses present at all signings. Whether or not this is 100% true, I can't say for certain, but it seems like they are pretty good about it.

[homerunhitter]

I think I’ll just collect signed cancelled checks!’ That seems like a safer alternative at least o know those are not forged. I believe signed checks are as close to an authentic autograph as one can get. Your guys thoughts on signed checks? Thanks

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

I think I’ll just collect signed cancelled checks!’ That seems like a safer alternative at least o know those are not forged. I believe signed checks are as close to an authentic autograph as one can get. Your guys thoughts on signed checks? Thanks

Al
I think that is the best thing to do if you want that to be your collecting niche, and to have some piece of mind. Many players are available on checks and most are relatively affordable (under $1000.00 ) even for HoFers.
Only legal documents , contracts , and checks are the safest bet these days. At one time I had over 175 checks in my collection and I never worried about authenticity; HOWEVER, about 8-10 years ago with the advent of really good printers I did get a few bad ones that were laser printed . What I would now if I'm primarily going to buy the checks from ebay or a dealer is ask for front and back images of the check , look for the check tear marks from the checkbook on the check , and lastly search ebay for that check of that player and pay particular attention to see if that check number is listed on ebay as well or far sale elsewhere. Call me paranoid but there are scammers everywhere using all the tools available to them.

[homerunhitter]

Thank you for this wonderful advice. I appreciate it. It gives me a lot to think about as I decide which way to go with my collecting.

I feel I should just throw my hands up and say I’m done with collecting WAY to many forgers and fraud in our hobby. Who would of thought a cancelled bank check of all things would be duplicated on a high end printer? I never thought of that before but you are so right. It seems like nothing is safe (or authentic) in our hobby anymore. I never thought I’d see the day that we would have to worry or second guess that a factory topps Autograph would not be real. Thank you so much for opening my eyes to this (in regards to signed checks) as I always thought signed checks were 100% authentic.

[Klrdds]

Forgeries are not new to the autograph collecting world. Forgers have been around as long as people have been signing their names on anything. The difference is that IMO there are more forgers than before , more materials / items to sign to forge , more methods to forge , smarter forgers , and more unsuspecting buyers with any amount of money willing to buy autographs for any amount of money and of anyone they want ( you don't have to forge items that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars anymore to be successful ), many many diverse selling platforms are available, also at times there is very little recourse against forgers because they rarely are the original seller and can claim ignorance as a defense at times, and, finally, there are TPAs that are sometimes a forgers best friend.
That's just one reason among others I started selling parts of my autograph collection about 5 years ago.
Good Luck on your decision .

[JRS123490]

Don't throw your hands up. There are a lot of knowledgeable people out there that don't work at 3rd party authenticators (many in this board.) Sorry if you misunderstood, but the Topps Archives from the last 5 years have been very good sources of authentic autographs. It's the early to mid 2000's cards I have seen a lot of garbage with. And yes, check and document scanning behind big fancy frames seem to be happening a ton recently. If you buy a check (I am not a fan unlike a lot of people,) you need to be sure you examine closely/in person. The same goes for any other cut (see the Ty Cobb laser scanned PSA slabbed fiasco.)

[homerunhitter]

Very true and I guess one way to look at it also is that factory certified autos from companies like Topps and upper deck are for the most part truly authentic and If a long standing company in our hobby like Topps has a scandal in regards to the authenticity of it autographs then it’s probably time for most collectors to get out of the hobby anyway because if you can’t trust Topps who can you trust!

[MooseDog]

One spring training in the early 1990s I helped out a friend of mine and witnessed the signing of 800 cards. This was very early on in the game, so it may be more lax now. Apparently, at least back then, all Topps cards autographed for inserts had to be witnessed by a Topps representative, the player got to keep (I think) 6 cards for himself and even the pens get collected and returned to Topps.

[homerunhitter]

That is very very cool! I think/believe most topps autos are real I mean who Is really going to take the time to counterfeit a Bobby Doerr or Tim Raines auto!

[homerunhitter]

Any other updates?

[homerunhitter]

Is it true that the topps buy back cards are more prone to being counterfeit? I thought I read that somewhere on this site but can’t seem to find that anywhere.

[cardcop]

This has been my collecting specialty since 1991 pro line fb autographs. I was elated when leaf came out with the signature series baseball, but stars were short printed, even worse in the extended series.
Since i collected only on card certified autographs (cai) myself since 1991, i've seen examples of almost every cai out there. Plus i have a photographic long term memory. I caught 3 out of the four known cai forgeries where up to half or more of all were forgeries. There are instances where blank cai's hit the hobby and unscrupulous people sign these themselves & put on ebay (especially superstar players), but these are in such small quantities they are good to be aware of- but you'll likely never see one.

Since i collected only on card certified autographs (cai) myself since 1991, i've seen examples of almost every cai out there. Plus i have a photographic long term memory. I caught 3 out of the four known cai forgeries where up to half or more of all were forgeries. There are instances where blank cai's hit the hobby and unscrupulous people sign these themselves & put on ebay (especially superstar players), but these are in such small quantities they are good to be aware of- but you'll likely never see one.

The 1st caught was signature rookies erict rhett (buccaneers rb). He admitted his girlfriend signed over half of them but the then sr owner (before tim flatt) sent real replacements to all that requested them. He did the right thing.

The 2nd was 1994-95 press pass vip larry pearson. This jerk son of famous nascar driver david pearson had over half signed by who knows, but the signatures couldn't be more different. I caught this one right out of the gate where walmart had boxes with two autos per box. I actually pulled two larry pearsons out of the same box! This was the easiest way to catch forgeries. I immediately went to a cape coral dealer/cardshop owner i knew and i called press pass on speaker phone. Theiur long time female secretary answered and took absolutely no responsibility saying "we send the cards to players, we expect athletes to sign, but if they don't it's not our fault." i couldn't believe her complete ignorance of quality control! The card shop owner coulldn't believe her attitude either & he swore off press pass from then on.


The next big one was 1997 upper deck football legends donnie shell. It's almost as if i was destined to find these. My father was sent two replacements in late 1998 for the [several] players who never returned their cards signed to upper deck for this very popular product, with i believe four autos per box. I asked my father if i could open the bubble envelope. Inside were two donnie shell autos with again two totally different autographs (one signed by a female). At this time unknown to me, upper deck lent their autograph expert (anthony west) to the fbi to assist with operation bullpen. Turns out this is who i got on the phone when i called upper deck and told them i caught one of their cai's that was a definite forgery. They transferred me to anythony west only every time i9 called. At first west didn't believe me & kept trying to blow me off (i tape recorded all calls legally). Finally anthony west looked at a stack of the shell autos and noticed the forgery versions using the excuse that they missed them because of the "loud card backround". Then how did i see it instantly? West promised to destroy all the forgery versions they had left, but i did't trust him. At this time i ha the hobby's 1st free anti-fraud website and i reported all of this with est, step by step. I had hundreds of collectors on my emailing list who got scoops. These people took up a collection to fly me tohawaii for the trade conference in jan. 1999. They only could come up with $500. So i decided to fly to california & go to upper deck while all executives were in hawaii. I thought if everything went right; i'd get more evidence that way.
I went to upper deck's empty parking lot thinking they might be closed. But they weren't. There was a rather cold woman sitting in a chair & small table in the ground floor lobby. I told her anthony west left a copy of donnie shell''s contract to sign on hisc desk for me (i don't lie, but i had to say something to get in there). It was a shit in the dark, but then a nice female paralegal comes halfway down the black spiral staircase that goes up to the executive floor (i didn''t know it then, but no non-ud high ranking employee ever went up there before! Or after). Since only the paralegal was there, 1st she asked if i was a process server & i quickly said "no, absolutely not" (obviously ud got lots of documents delivered by process server such as lawsuits they refused to admit they received). So she invited me upstairs with a look of shock on the lobby employee's face. Lol
i went upstairs explaining to the paralegal what i told the lobby woman. The paralegal & i shook hands & i explained i fight fraud in the hobby for free and wanted to make sure westv kept his word because if not it could seriously harm ud's autograph trust. First we go into west's office and i told her the contract copy should be on top of west's desk- which of course it was not. What followed was the craziest things i could have ever imagined could have happened.
The paralegal leads me into room that you'd tink was a janitor's closet, it was their autograph contract room! It had one four drawer silver metal paperwork cabinet literally overflowing with athlete autograph contracts, mind you this was only jan. 1999, yet there were already thousands & thousands of autograph contracts! The paralegal found donnie sgell's contract in 5-minutes. She made a copy & gave it to me. Then she invited me into her office. I told my story in more detail regarding fighting other hobbyv fraud for free since 1991 & doing huge card/autograph donations every year to hospitalized children since 1989. She then offered to call quality control and have them bring up all donnie shell autos they had left. A guy bring up 3 100-count cases. We told him about the forgeries and he too used the "loud background" excuse. Obvioult west spoke to qa about the forgeries they missed. But what came next was even stranger. The paralegal opened a full case and started going through the autos. She pulled the first forgery as the 3rd card in the case, within 10-minutes she pulled 68 forgery versions out of 100 cards with a dumbfounded qa guy standing right there! He quickly left...
Then i went through a full case and pulled 65 forgeries out of 100. In total- 2/3rds of the autos (around 150/250) were forgeries, and i told the paralegal before we got these that west promised to destroy these already! See how useless anythony west is and the fbi used him as their autograph expert??? The only reason upper deck gave the fbi any help was because richard mcwilliam had his 2nd federal racketeering/bankruptcy fraud charges against him in 5-years, that the fbi made go away with him helping with operation bullpen. But what help could west actually offer? None i'm sure of! The paralegal sincerely thanked me for my help and assured me the forgeries would be destroyed this time.
However in 2011 pper deck releases a follow up to 1997 football legends (but they lost their nfl licensing by this point) so they release 2011 college legends autographs. But they put 1997 nfl legends "buyback" autographs randomly inserted in the college product & 65% of the hundreds of donnie shell buyback autos were the forgery version once again. Afer all i went through to get these forgeries out of the hobby, and 12-years later upper deck is still releasing them!!! I publicized the heck out of this story online (as best i could all by myself with not much money). Today i guarantee almost no one ev en knows this forgery version even exists. Everything i stated here are absiolute facts i can prove.

The last big cai forgery was dak prescott himself bringing rare versions of his rc autographs to a printer to put a preprint autograph of his cai cards (of the same exact signature version) on like 100 cards, but he had the printer change the size of his signatures. He thought he'd fool everyone (i couldn't stand this jerk ever since). For once i have to give graders credit, they caught all these that were sent for grading. I would have thought after the upper deck fiasco, legal documents would have been improved so athletes would get in legal trouble for knowingly distributing forgeries. No such luck...

Best wishes,

james aka cardcop

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by cardcop

This has been my collecting specialty since 1991 pro line fb autographs. I was elated when leaf came out with the signature series baseball, but stars were short printed, even worse in the extended series.
Since i collected only on card certified autographs (cai) myself since 1991, i've seen examples of almost every cai out there. Plus i have a photographic long term memory. I caught 3 out of the four known cai forgeries where up to half or more of all were forgeries. There are instances where blank cai's hit the hobby and unscrupulous people sign these themselves & put on ebay (especially superstar players), but these are in such small quantities they are good to be aware of- but you'll likely never see one.

Since i collected only on card certified autographs (cai) myself since 1991, i've seen examples of almost every cai out there. Plus i have a photographic long term memory. I caught 3 out of the four known cai forgeries where up to half or more of all were forgeries. There are instances where blank cai's hit the hobby and unscrupulous people sign these themselves & put on ebay (especially superstar players), but these are in such small quantities they are good to be aware of- but you'll likely never see one.

The 1st caught was signature rookies erict rhett (buccaneers rb). He admitted his girlfriend signed over half of them but the then sr owner (before tim flatt) sent real replacements to all that requested them. He did the right thing.

The 2nd was 1994-95 press pass vip larry pearson. This jerk son of famous nascar driver david pearson had over half signed by who knows, but the signatures couldn't be more different. I caught this one right out of the gate where walmart had boxes with two autos per box. I actually pulled two larry pearsons out of the same box! This was the easiest way to catch forgeries. I immediately went to a cape coral dealer/cardshop owner i knew and i called press pass on speaker phone. Theiur long time female secretary answered and took absolutely no responsibility saying "we send the cards to players, we expect athletes to sign, but if they don't it's not our fault." i couldn't believe her complete ignorance of quality control! The card shop owner coulldn't believe her attitude either & he swore off press pass from then on.


The next big one was 1997 upper deck football legends donnie shell. It's almost as if i was destined to find these. My father was sent two replacements in late 1998 for the [several] players who never returned their cards signed to upper deck for this very popular product, with i believe four autos per box. I asked my father if i could open the bubble envelope. Inside were two donnie shell autos with again two totally different autographs (one signed by a female). At this time unknown to me, upper deck lent their autograph expert (anthony west) to the fbi to assist with operation bullpen. Turns out this is who i got on the phone when i called upper deck and told them i caught one of their cai's that was a definite forgery. They transferred me to anythony west only every time i9 called. At first west didn't believe me & kept trying to blow me off (i tape recorded all calls legally). Finally anthony west looked at a stack of the shell autos and noticed the forgery versions using the excuse that they missed them because of the "loud card backround". Then how did i see it instantly? West promised to destroy all the forgery versions they had left, but i did't trust him. At this time i ha the hobby's 1st free anti-fraud website and i reported all of this with est, step by step. I had hundreds of collectors on my emailing list who got scoops. These people took up a collection to fly me tohawaii for the trade conference in jan. 1999. They only could come up with $500. So i decided to fly to california & go to upper deck while all executives were in hawaii. I thought if everything went right; i'd get more evidence that way.
I went to upper deck's empty parking lot thinking they might be closed. But they weren't. There was a rather cold woman sitting in a chair & small table in the ground floor lobby. I told her anthony west left a copy of donnie shell''s contract to sign on hisc desk for me (i don't lie, but i had to say something to get in there). It was a shit in the dark, but then a nice female paralegal comes halfway down the black spiral staircase that goes up to the executive floor (i didn''t know it then, but no non-ud high ranking employee ever went up there before! Or after). Since only the paralegal was there, 1st she asked if i was a process server & i quickly said "no, absolutely not" (obviously ud got lots of documents delivered by process server such as lawsuits they refused to admit they received). So she invited me upstairs with a look of shock on the lobby employee's face. Lol
i went upstairs explaining to the paralegal what i told the lobby woman. The paralegal & i shook hands & i explained i fight fraud in the hobby for free and wanted to make sure westv kept his word because if not it could seriously harm ud's autograph trust. First we go into west's office and i told her the contract copy should be on top of west's desk- which of course it was not. What followed was the craziest things i could have ever imagined could have happened.
The paralegal leads me into room that you'd tink was a janitor's closet, it was their autograph contract room! It had one four drawer silver metal paperwork cabinet literally overflowing with athlete autograph contracts, mind you this was only jan. 1999, yet there were already thousands & thousands of autograph contracts! The paralegal found donnie sgell's contract in 5-minutes. She made a copy & gave it to me. Then she invited me into her office. I told my story in more detail regarding fighting other hobbyv fraud for free since 1991 & doing huge card/autograph donations every year to hospitalized children since 1989. She then offered to call quality control and have them bring up all donnie shell autos they had left. A guy bring up 3 100-count cases. We told him about the forgeries and he too used the "loud background" excuse. Obvioult west spoke to qa about the forgeries they missed. But what came next was even stranger. The paralegal opened a full case and started going through the autos. She pulled the first forgery as the 3rd card in the case, within 10-minutes she pulled 68 forgery versions out of 100 cards with a dumbfounded qa guy standing right there! He quickly left...
Then i went through a full case and pulled 65 forgeries out of 100. In total- 2/3rds of the autos (around 150/250) were forgeries, and i told the paralegal before we got these that west promised to destroy these already! See how useless anythony west is and the fbi used him as their autograph expert??? The only reason upper deck gave the fbi any help was because richard mcwilliam had his 2nd federal racketeering/bankruptcy fraud charges against him in 5-years, that the fbi made go away with him helping with operation bullpen. But what help could west actually offer? None i'm sure of! The paralegal sincerely thanked me for my help and assured me the forgeries would be destroyed this time.
However in 2011 pper deck releases a follow up to 1997 football legends (but they lost their nfl licensing by this point) so they release 2011 college legends autographs. But they put 1997 nfl legends "buyback" autographs randomly inserted in the college product & 65% of the hundreds of donnie shell buyback autos were the forgery version once again. Afer all i went through to get these forgeries out of the hobby, and 12-years later upper deck is still releasing them!!! I publicized the heck out of this story online (as best i could all by myself with not much money). Today i guarantee almost no one ev en knows this forgery version even exists. Everything i stated here are absiolute facts i can prove.

The last big cai forgery was dak prescott himself bringing rare versions of his rc autographs to a printer to put a preprint autograph of his cai cards (of the same exact signature version) on like 100 cards, but he had the printer change the size of his signatures. He thought he'd fool everyone (i couldn't stand this jerk ever since). For once i have to give graders credit, they caught all these that were sent for grading. I would have thought after the upper deck fiasco, legal documents would have been improved so athletes would get in legal trouble for knowingly distributing forgeries. No such luck...

Best wishes,

james aka cardcop

Too much to read in one sitting. It’s sad when certified pack pulled autographs are fake. Those should be the one thing in the hobby that are 100% real.

[homerunhitter]

Sorry double post

[packs]

Older series may be easy to fabricate but the newer releases all have "Topps Certified Auto" or something similar printed on them along with the signature. It's taken the place of the old embossed stamp in most cases.

[homerunhitter]

Now I’m debating if PSA signed cards are just as good or maybe even better than topps certified autos? Meaning topps certified autos could be fake but won’t sell but if PSA slabs a fake card as authentic, it will still sell because it’s in a PSA slab. (Hope this made sense)

[hawaiian bam bam]

Does anyone else notice that Topps (or any of the other companies as well) use a dry, different type of sharpie? it seems like the newer issued autographs (like the 2024 products) look already faded! I wonder if they use cheap sharpies? it just seems to me that a card signed in regular sharpie (like a IP or TTM auto) looks way better than a topps certified autograph (The autograph seems to look much better) the autographs on certified autos seem smaller and tighter, vs larger autographs on regular signed cards. Anyone else see this?

[bowmanred]

Last I heard the card companies use Staedtler Lumocolor pens because they can write on plastic surfaces like the stickers and Chrome cards.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

Does anyone else notice that Topps (or any of the other companies as well) use a dry, different type of sharpie? it seems like the newer issued autographs (like the 2024 products) look already faded! I wonder if they use cheap sharpies? it just seems to me that a card signed in regular sharpie (like a IP or TTM auto) looks way better than a topps certified autograph (The autograph seems to look much better) the autographs on certified autos seem smaller and tighter, vs larger autographs on regular signed cards. Anyone else see this?

They provide Staedtler markers.